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I can't use qwerty! D:

  • Started by Fox
  • 34 Replies:
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  • From: Poland
  • Registered: 06-Jan-2015
  • Posts: 26

Oh, someone dug out my topic. :D
I use DreymaR's PKL implementation with changed AltGr bindings, so I use Polish diacritics normally.

Since I'm here, maybe I'll give you guys an update:
My exams went well, I think. I still have qwerty muscle memory for programming phrases... though errors happened when I unconsciously started touch typing.
I haven't practiced speedtyping, I just used Colemak every day.
If I were to use qwerty on my laptop, I would have problem - my mind associates touch typing and Colemak with it. I know that because PKL messes up special characters in cmd (e.g. I want to write /, it shows &...), so I sometimes must use qwerty.

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  • From: Viken, Norway
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Hello, Foxie! *waves frantically* :-D

What do you mean by PKL "messing up special characters in cmd"? All the symbols work normally in cmd windows for me.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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  • From: Poland
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Hey~. *waves a bit less frantically* Long time no see.

As I already said before - PKL behaves strangely for me with 'h' character for every Fn shortcut (e.g. dimming a screen (Fn+F5)? let's write 'hhh' in the active text field!).

6y/o Asus F5GL laptop. WinVista + PKL with [eD] Polish locale.
What it looks like normally + what same sequence in cmd.

`~!@#$%^&*()_+-=[]\{}|;:'",./<>?
; !xx$%:^+*(_=-)xxxxxx<>[@,.&\|{

I used 'x' for keys that don't work at all. Not space, because shift+` gives space...

AltGr normally + altGr in cmd:

‚‘’πŋʃł‹›¨åđ`
ą®śþðħńę—ó´
żźć÷•ç׸˙/

'''???ł<>¨ađ;
ąRś??hńę-ó´
żźć÷•ç׸˙&

- Letters and numbers work fine. And Polish diacritics too.
- All deadkeys work (despite that above behavior), though not all characters can be displayed ('?') or characters are written w/o accent (e.g. ã = a, or non-deadkey-written å from above). Characters that are displayed properly are probably those that can be written with Polish typewriter's keyboard ('Polish (214)' in Windows, Polish qwertz), as the OS language is Polish.

OS qwerty in cmd = OS qwerty normally = PKL's Colemak normally (but ; placement, of course)
All cmd characters were copied, so there is no way I was blind and just didn't notice accent.


Fun fact I just discovered when playing with cmd:
"・" (unicode full-width character) is read by cmd (at least using dir and tree) as ascii char 7 (bell).
I must remember not to freak out again when I list my music folders in cmd - it's almost 2am, and it's deadly quiet (but for two annoying flies and laptop's fan), so I almost had a heart attack when I heard it.

Btw. never run a program having while(1) putchar(7); on a laptop.

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  • From: Viken, Norway
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Ah okay, it's that. Well, that's between you and your Asus. And as also said before, it's really really strange as the Fn key should be completely transparent to the OS. :-(

Too bad, that.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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  • From: Poland
  • Registered: 28-Jun-2015
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@Fox try running a Linux grapical livecd, and running the command 'xev'. That way you'll be able to see if your Fn issue is hardware (things are the same) or software (things are different).

(also living in Poland since September BTW but not Polish)

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I knew I forgot something...
Sorry for delayed reply, @wmartens.

To be honest I don't think if it's even worth doing anything, I just mention things like that as kind of fun facts. ^^" I'll be getting a new computer soon, if it still behaves like that, we may investigate further, but now it's kinda pointless.

But for your advice (theoretically, I haven't tried it yet):
You say about it being the same/different under Linux... but if I don't have a similar test under Windows, how can I compare them?
The issue appears only when running PKL, so it certainly is software-based... but we just don't know what other software may collide. It's not like Fn key combos get remapped to 'h', they still have their functions and write 'h' (with all the modifiers, I've checked).
As I read about xev, it gives key scancodes, while my Fn is a single key, a modifier used with other keys (e.g. dim screen = Fn+F5).


Out of curiosity, may I ask where in Poland? Warsaw, Cracow? ^^

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Actually, there's a similar test for Windows which is to run a persistent AutoHotKey script with a keyboard hook (PKL doesn't qualify as it's too fancy) and select something (I've forgotten what) in the script's menu in the tray. That'll show you a keyboard log similar to XEV. It's a while since I did it myself, but if you're interested I'm sure we can make it work.

Last edited by DreymaR (18-Jul-2015 21:54:10)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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DreymaR said:

...show you a keyboard log similar to XEV.

The KeyHistory command. What I do is bind it to a key combo so that you can request it easily at an arbitrary time, e.g.

#InstallKeybdHook      ;(optional)
RAlt & F1::KeyHistory

It comes in handy for debugging.

Update: I have not yet tried using the #InstallKeybdHook option. If you do this you get might get more information, according to
https://www.autohotkey.com/docs/commands/KeyHistory.htm

Last edited by stevep99 (20-Jul-2015 14:50:02)

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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Ah yes, that one. Could you edit your post to show a minimal script that lets Fox use this command with Ralt+F1? It needs a line or two above to activate the hook as I remember it. Then she can simply get AutoHotkey and save that script as something.ahk and run it.

Note: That'll be tricksy if you use PKL, since the two scripts will then be competing for the keyboard hook. Maybe I should add the KeyHistory command to my own PKL version? Aha!

Last edited by DreymaR (20-Jul-2015 09:45:25)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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It's 2am now as I'm checking the forum... It was a bad idea. It's always a bad idea - it's just "I'll have a look", and then I read/do/reply/whatever.

Fun fact: PKL Colemak (with scancodes) and AHK with qwerty->colemak (letter::letter) don't collide, lol.
Legend:

Types: h=Hook Hotkey, s=Suppressed (blocked), i=Ignored because it was generated by an AHK script, a=Artificial, #=Disabled via #IfWinActive/Exist, U=Unicode character (SendInput).

Rest is pretty logical.


Fn+F5 (dim screen) with PKL.

VK  SC    Type    Up/Dn    Elapsed    Key        Window
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FF  023         d    3.98    not found          
48  023    i    d    0.02    H                  
48  023    i    u    0.00    H                  

Same w/o PKL:

FF  023         d    6.29    not found          

Basically, my Fn shortcuts have the same scancode as H key...
(Fn isn't recognized on its own nor with non-shortcut keys.)
As Colemak[eD] PKL files use scancodes, it's just another H...


... I really need to get a new computer asap. I've killed my Z key (and Z is 5th most common letter in Polish), my Fn is H-in-disguise, my cmd doesn't properly recognize keys... oh, btw:

W/ PKL in cmd, tried to write / (got &):

BF  035         d    0.83    /                  Wiersz polecenia
A0  02A    i    d    0.02    LShift             
37  008    i    d    0.00    7                  
37  008    i    u    0.00    7                  
A0  02A    i    u    0.01    LShift             
BF  035         u    0.17    /                  

W/o PKL in cmd:

BF  035         d    1.70    /                  
BF  035         u    0.11    /                  

(W/ PKL in different windows it's normal.)
Basically: I press '/', it is there, but 'hey look, let's generate & (shift+7) in a meantime'.

Shift+7 gives pretty much the same with shift+6 in between... (i.e. I want to type &, but I get ^ instead)

A0  02A         d    2.81    LShift             
37  008         d    0.19    7                  
36  007    i    d    0.02    6                  
36  007    i    u    0.00    6                  
37  008         u    0.09    7                  
A0  02A         u    0.08    LShift             

It looks like more fun with RShift:

A1  136         d    0.65    RShift             
37  008         d    0.33    7                  
A0  02A    i    d    0.01    LShift             
A1  136    i    u    0.00    RShift             
36  007    i    d    0.00    6                  
36  007    i    u    0.00    6                  
A0  02A    i    u    0.02    LShift             
A1  136    i    d    0.00    RShift             
37  008         u    0.09    7                  
A1  136         u    0.09    RShift             

It's actually how special characters are typed by PKL - typing '&' normally (PKL, not in cmd):

A1  136         d    5.54    RShift             
37  008         d    0.23    7                  
A0  02A    i    d    0.02    LShift             
A1  136    i    u    0.00    RShift             
37  008    i    d    0.00    7                  
37  008    i    u    0.00    7                  
A0  02A    i    u    0.02    LShift             
A1  136    i    d    0.00    RShift             
A1  136         u    0.06    RShift             
37  008         u    0.02    7                  

For comparison - how it finds normal remapped keys?
PKL Colemak N ([eD]):

4A  024         d    21.78    J                  
4E  031    i    d    0.02    N                  
4E  031    i    u    0.00    N                  
4A  024         u    0.11    J                  

AHK Colemak N ('j::n'):

4A  024    h    d    3.21    J                  
4E  031    i    d    0.00    N                  
4A  024    h    u    0.13    J                  
4E  031    i    u    0.00    N                  


Basically, my computer/keyboard is weird. As I said before: I'll get a new one for uni soon, so don't bother to 'fix' this^ unless you have too much free time. ;P
It's 3am now, so I'm only going to send this and go to sleep. Good night!

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