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    Dvorak's greatest advantage never mentioned

    • Started by ktvoelker
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    • Registered: 17-Jan-2006
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    It seems that you haven't entirely realized that the great advantage of Dvorak is that all the vowels are on one side and the most common consonants on the other. This isn't even quite as important as packing the most-used letters on the home row. By having all vowels on one side, the alternation between consonant and vowel that is common in so many words in so many languages is used to enhance the layout. While distance statistics may not show this to be as beneficial, speed is also very important to me, and alternation between sides of the keyboard is the best speed enhancement, because each hand prepares for the next stroke while the other is typing.

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    • Shai
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    I don't believe that hand alternation is the most important factor for speed. In fact many modern alternative layouts (e.g. Capewell, Maltron, Arensito, Qwerak) do not try to maximize hand alteration.

    From the Arensito design principles:

    I finally wanted to maximize the probability of having two consecutive keystrokes happen next to each other. This keeps the fingers rolling and increases the typing speed (Dvorak was wrong!).

    From the Qwerak design principles:

    Slightly decrease frequency of hand alternation (e.g. swap S and O) where within-hand rolls across adjacent surface keys can be less tricky than inter-hand alternation timing.

    From the Capewell design principles:

    Maximize the use of 'combos,' i.e., multiple keys hit on the same hand with one comfortable movement

    Putting all the vowels on one side means that you need to place vowels on the index finger, and thus highly increase same-finger ratio, or be forced to put common letters in weak positions. I've found that same-finger typing causes slowdowns more than any other factor.

    I think a better way to look at looking at it is whether you can chord the keys at the same time, e.g. you can't really hit 'M','Y','P' (on QWERTY) as a chord, so it slows down typing. However you can easily hit 'J','K','L' as a chord, so you don't need to prepare the hand, because it's already prepared.

    From my personal experience typing on Colemak is a little bit faster than Dvorak, but YMMV.

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    • Shai
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    I've added a new page comparing hand alternation between the layouts:
    https://colemak.com/Hand_alternation

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    • From: Santa Fe, NM
    • Registered: 21-Nov-2008
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    An essential thing to bear in mind is that design considerations that were important when Dvorak was putting together his keyboard back in the 1930s, are not necessarily so applicable today. I think that hand alternation is one of these.

    Back in Dvorak's day, typewriters were mechanical devices and it took significant effort to press a key. In that context, hand alternation makes a lot of sense, since you needed quite lot of hand motion to press a key. Same hand could be seen as almost as bad as same finger in this light.

    These days, almost no effort is required to press a key, hence whole hand motions are not necessary, and so I think hand alternation is not nearly so important. In fact, I'm pretty sure I can type two keys that are close together with the same hand (with different fingers of course), significantly faster than I can hit two keys with different hands. It's easier to "roll" two fingers on the same hand than two fingers on different hands. This kind of rolling probably wouldn't have worked with early mechanical typewriters.

    Dvorak's layout has several problems, e.g. (a) excessive same finger on the left index finger, caused by putting a vowel on the index finger home key and surrounding it with consonants, and (b) awkward placement  of L and S, (c) R not being on the home row. In contrast I can't really find any serious deficiencies with the Colemak layout. The only perhaps controversial compromises to retaining compatibility with QWERTY are really very minor.

    Cheers,

    Sy

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    A good point syperk. But did you know this post is over two years old???

    I've often wondered what would be an optimal layout for a mechanical typewriter (using computer analysis). Did Sholes and Co. get it right I wonder.

    Edit: I have a feeling Typewriters may have a comeback sometime soon...

    Last edited by simonh (21-Nov-2008 22:49:21)

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    • From: Santa Fe, NM
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    simonh said:

    A good point syperk. But did you know this post is over two years old???

    Yeah - I found it while I was browsing for something else and didn't notice the timestamp. Still it's a timeless debate!

    Just getting started on this whole learning Colemak thing, after dabbling with Dvorak for a few weeks and feeling that it wasn't quite right. So far, I really like what I see.

    Sy

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    simonh said:

    A good point syperk. But did you know this post is over two years old???

    I've often wondered what would be an optimal layout for a mechanical typewriter (using computer analysis). Did Sholes and Co. get it right I wonder.

    Edit: I have a feeling Typewriters may have a comeback sometime soon...

    What gives you that feeling?

    By Sholes, you mean Dvorak right?

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    syperk said:

    These days, almost no effort is required to press a key, hence whole hand motions are not necessary, and so I think hand alternation is not nearly so important. In fact, I'm pretty sure I can type two keys that are close together with the same hand (with different fingers of course), significantly faster than I can hit two keys with different hands. It's easier to "roll" two fingers on the same hand than two fingers on different hands. This kind of rolling probably wouldn't have worked with early mechanical typewriters.

    I love the right-hand digraphs in Dvorak and I don't like the 3 and 4 letter one-hand combinations in Colemak during which the other hand has nothing to do. Dvorak of course has many problems and I am using Colemak now, but I find it somewhat weird for various reasons.

    By the way, placing the vowels on one side also makes the layout easier to learn. Not only it's easier to remember the placement of the letters, but also (at least for me) it's easier to identify the one-hand combinations so you can type them almost simultaneously (by rolling your fingers) rather than separately one after the other. Of course, you can learn to do that with any layout with a lot of practice.

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    SpeedMorph said:
    simonh said:

    A good point syperk. But did you know this post is over two years old???

    I've often wondered what would be an optimal layout for a mechanical typewriter (using computer analysis). Did Sholes and Co. get it right I wonder.

    Edit: I have a feeling Typewriters may have a comeback sometime soon...

    What gives you that feeling?

    By Sholes, you mean Dvorak right?

    Sholes designed the QWERTY layout: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Sholes

    As for the typewriter comment, I think the popularity of full screen text editors i.e. Darkroom, WriteMonkey, Q10 etc, will lead some folk to want a typewriter. Can't get any less distracting than that. I may be wrong of course.

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    simonh said:

    Sholes designed the QWERTY layout: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Sholes

    As for the typewriter comment, I think the popularity of full screen text editors i.e. Darkroom, WriteMonkey, Q10 etc, will lead some folk to want a typewriter. Can't get any less distracting than that. I may be wrong of course.

    Sholes' typewriter was good for reducing jams. But not much else. A keyboard could be designed that both reduces jams and is efficient. If I wanted to write a program to do it, I'd just need a simple change: it costs points for two keypresses to be in the same column or in adjacent columns.

    Yeah, I'll do that.

    Here are the results of a quick run (i.e. not very accurate) with the cost of a potential jam weighted at somewhat more than same finger, and double that of jumping over the home row.

    Here are the results.

    score: 62.334, effort: 105190084.8, handcount: 123726.0, fingercount: 61636.0, jumphomecount: 2596.0, rowchangecount: 394605.0, inrollcount: 230720.0, outrollcount: 345499.0, jamcount: 5649781.0

     x p f u . ' c d g v
     n a e i h l r t s o
     ; , k y z w m b j q

    I don't think the jam count is correct, because it was the same after every permutation. And yes, I know, this layout has a lot of issues like having a vowel on the index finger. I was doing a quick run. But this can give you a general idea.


    Here is a version I made by moving around a few things.

     x f u p . ' c d g v
     i a e n h l r t s o
     ; , k y z w m b j q

    The same finger is a lot better, and I don't think the jam count will be a lot higher.

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    • From: Belgium
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    SpeedMorph said:

    Here are the results of a quick run (i.e. not very accurate) with the cost of a potential jam weighted at somewhat more than same finger, and double that of jumping over the home row.

    Here are the results.

    score: 62.334, effort: 105190084.8, handcount: 123726.0, fingercount: 61636.0, jumphomecount: 2596.0, rowchangecount: 394605.0, inrollcount: 230720.0, outrollcount: 345499.0, jamcount: 5649781.0

    How does it compare to Qwerty? (in score, effort, ... and most importantly, jamcount? :-))

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    ghen said:
    SpeedMorph said:

    Here are the results of a quick run (i.e. not very accurate) with the cost of a potential jam weighted at somewhat more than same finger, and double that of jumping over the home row.

    Here are the results.

    score: 62.334, effort: 105190084.8, handcount: 123726.0, fingercount: 61636.0, jumphomecount: 2596.0, rowchangecount: 394605.0, inrollcount: 230720.0, outrollcount: 345499.0, jamcount: 5649781.0

    How does it compare to Qwerty? (in score, effort, ... and most importantly, jamcount? :-))

    Well jamcount is broken. I will see if I can fix it.

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    I scored my modified typewriter keyboard, my layout, Colemak, and QWERTY.

    Modified Typewriter Keyboard
                  0%               0%
           7% 11% 15% 16%         17% 14%  8%  8%
     0%
           x   f   u   p   .   '   c   d   g   v 0%
           i   a   e   n   h   l   r   t   s   o 0%
           ;   ,   k   y   z   w   m   b   j   q 0%
    
    Total keys pressed: 13362031
    
    Overall Score: 68.5267889290184
    Distance: 9001096 meters
    Same finger: 1.14%
    Same hand: 20.25%
    Same hand reverse direction: 1.54%
    Jumping over the home row: 0.07%
    
    Reversing direction on 1 hand: 1.54%
    Changing rows: 6.75%
    Reaching to center column: 2.65%
    Inward rolls: 2.99%
    Outward rolls: 2.93%
    
    Colemak by Shai
                  0%               0%
           8%  8% 11% 19%         19% 16%  9%  7%
     0%
       q   w   f   p   g   j   l   u   y   ; 0%
           a   r   s   t   d   h   n   e   i   o 0%
           z   x   c   v   b   k   m   ,   .   ' 0%
    
    Total keys pressed: 13362031
    
    Overall Score: 68.7083133544594
    Distance: 9357811 meters
    Same finger: 0.6%
    Same hand: 22.0%
    Same hand reverse direction: 2.1%
    Jumping over the home row: 0.28%
    
    Reversing direction on 1 hand: 2.1%
    Changing rows: 8.64%
    Reaching to center column: 2.02%
    Inward rolls: 3.83%
    Outward rolls: 3.39%
    
    MTGAP's evolved standard layout 2.0
                  0%               0%
           8% 10% 13% 17%         15% 15% 11%  8%
     0%
       ,   f   h   d   k   j   c   u   l   . 0%
           o   a   n   t   g   m   s   e   r   i 0%
           q   x   b   p   z   y   w   '   v   ; 0%
    
    Total keys pressed: 13362031
    
    Overall Score: 68.8918532669173
    Distance: 8941665 meters
    Same finger: 0.66%
    Same hand: 26.12%
    Same hand reverse direction: 2.19%
    Jumping over the home row: 0.12%
    
    Reversing direction on 1 hand: 2.19%
    Changing rows: 12.27%
    Reaching to center column: 1.28%
    Inward rolls: 6.9%
    Outward rolls: 6.97%
    
    QWERTY
                  0%               0%
           8%  8% 18% 21%         19%  8% 12%  2%
     0%
       q   w   e   r   t   y   u   i   o   p 0%
           a   s   d   f   g   h   j   k   l   ; 0%
           z   x   c   v   b   n   m   ,   .   ' 0%
    
    Total keys pressed: 13362031
    
    Overall Score: 102.5398193583
    Distance: 23205684 meters
    Same finger: 3.24%
    Same hand: 24.61%
    Same hand reverse direction: 2.76%
    Jumping over the home row: 2.94%
    
    Reversing direction on 1 hand: 2.76%
    Changing rows: 10.34%
    Reaching to center column: 5.23%
    Inward rolls: 4.12%
    Outward rolls: 3.74%
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