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Recommended finger placement

  • Started by BullHorn
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I've been typing for a bit over 20 years on QWERTY, self-taught, my own technique (not touch-type, more like Sean Wrona - alternating fingers and hands depending on the context - but not as fast, I usually average around 100wpm).

I'm trying to get into touch typing but doing this on QWERTY will be impossible after so many years of 'bad habits' so I'm trying it with Colemak.

From the Colemak official website, this is the recommended 'correct' finger placement:
Colemak_fingers.png

Now I want you guys to use your left hand middle finger to go from S to C and your ring finger to go from R to X. How is this even a thing? To achieve this you need to either rotate your wrist inward unnaturally or move your index finger to the right side. My fingers naturally go from S to X and from R to Z.

Is this madness or am I missing something?

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The "Angle-Mod" variants attempt to address this very issue. Have a look here..

Mod-DH

This led me to customizing my own variant whose discussion was started here using a..

Poker2 Keyboard

The symmetry of the angle mod feels totally natural. There is no going back once you become accustomed to it.

Last edited by sdothum (21-Jan-2016 20:50:23)
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I'm on a POK3R so I'll probably be able to do something like this too. The question is - if we all know that the 'right' way to do it is totally wrong (or requires a non-standard keyboard, which isn't even portrayed on the image anyway) - why is it the way it is?

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I was trying to explain what I mean to someone on IRC so I recorded a quick video that shows it pretty well.

Natural movement (S to X) vs. 'correct' but absolutely horrendous movement (S to C):
https://goo.gl/photos/cPnS6c7i2CnwnKAE9

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The angle of keyboard columns is retarded. It was done so that the key levers wouldn't hit each other on old keyboards... and even they they could have been made inline. Maybe consider a grid keyboard such at the typematrix or the preionic? (olkb.com)

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Nah, I actually really like my current keyboards but if it means that the correct way to type is so incorrect on these skewed layouts, I rather stick with my completely self-taught typing method which completely avoids all of these issues by breaking pretty much any typing rule there is.

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OK, from watching some of your videos I've learned two things:
1) These keys are used rather rarely
and
2) Whenever you use these keys, your index finger follows, moving away from the home row.

This means it's not really a problem, but during the learning stage I feel a lot less comfortable being dynamic and moving my fingers so much. I'll keep practicing...

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Of course not, but until now it never occurred to me that under proper touch typing technique, in order to type 'X', you need to move 3 fingers... This is clearly seen in each of your videos and solves my confusion. Thanks for posting.

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BullHorn said:

Is this madness or am I missing something?

You haven't missed anything. It is madness.

As others have mentioned, check out the angle mod. Before I converted to using the angle mod, I used to use the "incorrect" technique of C with index finger, X with middle, etc.

Last edited by stevep99 (22-Jan-2016 10:28:01)

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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Thanks for letting me know!

I don't quite like the DH mod for numerous reasons but the angle mod looks fantastic. Unfortunately for this case, my POK3R is in ANSI layout and the best way to achieve the angle mod requires shifting the top and middle rows 1 key to the right.

This should be rather simple to achieve with the POK3R HW/FW, right? I'm this case I might want to reposition the J and F keys so I still get the benefit of the home-position key bumps...

Guys, this might be the furthest hipster I've ever been...

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The one drawback of the ANSI keyboard is that it's not great for the Angle Mod! 

Yeah, you either need to move all the other keys one space to the right, or relocate Z to the old B position. 

A further option has been suggested: making left shift become your new Z, so that you can keep the default home position. In this configuration you would need to define alternative shift keys, some have suggested CapsLock and apostrophe in this case.

Last edited by stevep99 (22-Jan-2016 12:18:14)

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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@bullhorn, thanks for your comment and video.  That would have really helped me when I started out.

I glued my fingers to the home row when I began, and that introduced some other quirks, aches and pains.

Dvorak is quite easy on the left hand.  However P is in Qwerty's R slot, and if I use my index finger to hit it (and that's the habit I picked up), I can very easily twist my wrist, rather than move my entire hand.  And I think that causes the most strain for me.  I'm glad I don't use the bottom row that much.  And am 'staggered' those finger associations are commonly suggested.  It does feel alien.

When you do free your fingers up a bit, and float them about, you loose some of those stretching strains.  I can see the attraction of finger slides and micro movements, but as you've noticed they almost seem incompatible with a standard keyboard, with your posted finger map.

Last edited by pinkyache (22-Jan-2016 13:45:23)

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OH NOES!!!1!!!one!!!!eleven!!!!¡!¡!

The ulnar deviation! The pain, the... *sobs*

No, this is very very far from the "correct" way of typing. It's a horribly outdated image based on horribly outdated thinking.

sdothum said:
    `~  1 2 3 4 5 = 6 7 8 9 0 - \
    Tab  Q W F P B [ J L U Y ; '  Del
     Esc  A R S T G ] M N E I O  Enter
    Shift  X C D V Z / K H , .  Shift

Here's an ANSI Wide-Angle(Z)-modded layout with a DH-mod (SteveP99's DvbgHm mod, to be precise). The Wide part isn't necessary but nice. But the Angle part fixes your problem. The better option is to use an ISO keyboard so you won't have to move the Z key, but many typists aren't that fortunate hardwarewise. For more options and explanations, see my sig topics.

Straight wrists is such a boon to typing comfort.

Here's how I roll these days:

    Cmk-ISO-CurlAWide_90d_FShui.png
    The Colemak-CurlAngleWide ('Curl-DbgHk_AWide-35') ergo mod for PC105/ISO keyboards.


The finger colorings are Feng Shui based, taken from which elements belong to which fingers! ;-)

Last edited by DreymaR (22-Jan-2016 17:43:43)

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I never imagined a day will come when I'll be a little sad/annoyed about my love to ANSI... This layout looks perfect but I don't want to replace my lovely ANSI POK3R :(

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The revenge of ISO! Yeah, I know, sorry about that...

It's an odd story: IBM made the ISO keyboard because they saw the need for an extra key. But US users didn't want it (probably due to the same social inertia that kept QWERTY on top?) so now we have both. ISO is used by people who really need that extra key, and now it turns out there are other benefits to it as well... :-)

The gripe of the ANSI crowd is that the extra key makes the LShift stretch too long. But on an ISO keyboard it's no longer than the RShift stretch – and on an AngleWide-modded keyboard BOTH Shift key stretches are short and sweet!

Look into the A-Wing and Angle(Z) mods for ANSI, if you will. Depending on your preferences, they may improve your life. DH-mod is also recommended, of course. ;-)

Last edited by DreymaR (22-Jan-2016 14:25:53)

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Will do, thanks.

From a learning point if view,should I learn with default Colemak (because all lessons and websites support it) or should I apply all the mods before I get too used to the unmodded issues?

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Up to you. I've been part of the development of most mods, so I've done them one at a time and I think they're not that hard to do (especially Wide is easy). But if you're motivated for it I'd say go for it at once! There are Tarmak steps leading to the DH-mod, for instance. That won't give you Wide while learning, but you can easily stack on that right after. Or edit the files to get Wide.

From the support point of view, I'll be around to support solutions for the mods I use. But if you're going to depend on computers where you have to use built-in solutions it's a bit worse (unless you're up to building a QUICKIE Arduino device!). Then again, even vanilla Colemak isn't currently supported by Windows.

Last edited by DreymaR (04-Feb-2016 10:40:16)

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If you primarily use one machine, that you can happily configure to your hearts content, apply all the tweaks you desire.  Bear in mind that if you do move between machines you might find yourself floundering.

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I'd say about 80% of the typing I do with my personal keyboard and it should be able to 'remember' all the tweaks in firmware.

I just want to make sure I do it right and avoid ad many bad habits as possible. I've been typing QWERTY for 20+ years without any technique (but still fast around 100wpm), so my goal is to reset and do it right this time. I'm almost sure that it won't harm my QWERTY almost at all because of my lack-of-technique.

Now I need to decide between ANSI Angle + Wide or moveZ + Wide and whether I really want to use DH mod or not... So many decisions, I hate this. :|


-EDIT: Thinking more about it - the Z-movement is out of the question because then I have to shift the bottom row one key left and that means all Windows shortcuts are slightly screwed up. So my only option in the regard of angle is to move home+top row one key to the right. I'll think about the other options and update soon..

-EDIT2: Mod DH moves the V away, breaking another very important Windows shortcut so I guess that's it. I just need to do Wide + Angle. How do you guys make these awesome ASCII/image diagrams of keyboard layouts? I want to make one before I start figuring out how to program the POK3R...

-EDIT3: Damn, I just realized that any mod that includes shifting home+top rows to the right also mean I have to shift the numbers row and... for some reason that annoys me a little. :/

Last edited by BullHorn (22-Jan-2016 20:29:23)
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Well, my love for ANSI officially died this day... But it's too late to return the POK3R for an ISO version.

How hard would it be in the future to go from regular Colemak ANSI to Angled Colemak ISO?

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Okay, if you do Steve's Mod-DH it does indeed move the V away (or rather, keeps it in place while moving XC away from it). I didn't like that either, so check out my DbgHk mod which is well suited for normal-staggered boards and less dramatic than the DvbgHm mod. (Again, see my sig topics – or see the updated image further up in this topic.)

The idea behind the Angle mod is that you don't actually shift the bottom row in terms of fingering, but shift your wrist so it's straight instead of contorted. So in "reality", the XCV keys won't be moving although they're moved physically to accommodate the better angle. Yes, having to move the Z is a bit of a downer – but that's only the Undo key which is a separate functionality from the Cut/Copy/Paste block – which is preserved in my DH-mod, in effect.

The A-Frame/"A-Wing" mod keeps all the shortcut keys in place, at the cost of a key column between A/Q and Caps/Tab. This mod moves a lot of keys physically, but again, not conceptually. It lets you do the DH-mod too.

    Cmk-ANSI-AFrame_60d_FShui.png

If you want to make an ascii layout design, press the "quote" button on a post that has one you like and copy out the [ code ] part with the layout. Then you can paste that into a post of your own and edit it.

My pretty images I've made as SVG in Inkscape, sweating blood in the process. I like the result, but it's been wayyy too much work. :-)

Learning the Angle mod was really easy, it only took me a couple of days to feel comfortable with it. The DH mod was a bit more of a challenge, but quite easy nevertheless.

Last edited by DreymaR (22-Jan-2016 23:40:49)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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I've looked at all of the variations of the angle-mod for ANSI by you, stevep99 and sdothum and although ambitious, all of them seem inferior to the elegant solution achievable on ISO. Each mod causes some other trouble (ex: too far from tab/left-shift, bottom row shortcuts move, numbers row loses alignment to the rest or entire numbers row has to move right, etc) and if you say switching to Angle-mod in the future is really easy, I think I'll just stick to default Colemak for now.

What I can assure you though is that my next keyboard purchase will be ISO......

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BullHorn said:

Well, my love for ANSI officially died this day... ?

I went through a similar experience but from the other side. ISO keyboards are standard here, but for a long time I used to hate that extra key to the left of Z, and would look enviously at ANSI keyboards. It took the Angle Mod to make me change my mind.

Hmm, if I were in your position and had to use ANSI...

Move top and middle rows rightward? I like having the left Alt accessible with my left thumb. For me the relative positions of the bottom row modifier keys would be too adversely affected.

Moving Z is the better option I think. Agree its a bit annoying because of the Ctrl-Z shortcut, but it's still just about acceptable, and you could always define a separate Undo hotkey to avoid reaching for the difficult Z. I think that's what I'd do.

There is another option: Use the standard Colemak layout, but use the "wrong" fingers, i.e. C with index finger, X with middle, Z with ring. Depending on you current technique, this might be the path of least resistance?

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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Another option is to send the POK3R back to Amazon (Hurray for very long return durations) and get an ISO one.

There are no ISO keyboards that keep the simplicity of ANSI though, right? Like all of the ISO keyboards come with some weird changes to the numbers row and some extra weird keys near the Enter key. Which one is the most similar to ANSI - UK, DE or Nordic?

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BullHorn said:

Another option is to send the POK3R back to Amazon (Hurray for very long return durations) and get an ISO one.

There are no ISO keyboards that keep the simplicity of ANSI though, right? Like all of the ISO keyboards come with some weird changes to the numbers row and some extra weird keys near the Enter key. Which one is the most similar to ANSI - UK, DE or Nordic?

I would guess the UK one is the most similar, the main differences are  # @ " \ £.  However since you will be typing Colemak why don't you get one with blank keycaps?  Then you wouldn't have the suffer the indignity of looking at Qwerty :)

It would be nice it were possible to get keyboards with ISO left-half but ANSI right-half.   I also don't like the ISO enter.  The only board I have seen to do this is the proposed Ultimate Hacking Keyboard.

That said I rarely need the Enter key any more, since Extend + space does the job very nicely.

Last edited by stevep99 (23-Jan-2016 13:51:58)

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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