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My transition to Colemak, with a lot of re-mapping along the way!

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Having considered making the plunge since at least a year ago, and having read up on the pros and cons on the internet, I finally pushed trepidation aside and replaced my qwerty layout with a Colemak one almost seven weeks ago. I think what eventually clinched the matter was seeing how much qwerty made my left hand work and feeling the latter's pain and exhaustion. I decided on Colemak because of its good press and because it's widely used. I added the three extra Norwegian letters—Æ, Ø, & Å—on the right side of the keyboard and re-mapped the remaining symbol keys as I pleased. But apart from that, my only messing around in the standard design was re-mapping the qwerty–Y key as Backspace and evicting its Colemak inhabitant, the rather infrequent "J", to qwerty–P. I had resolved not to get into any extensive re-mapping and/or obscure alternative versions so as to make it as usable as possible across the spectrum of computers I might find myself using in the future. This resolution, however, was soon to fall by the wayside...
I first learned to touch type when I was in middle school. I've now entered my 44th year, which means I've been using qwerty for about thirty. Before changing to Colemak, my speed was somewhere in the environs of 50–60 wpm—in other words, not exactly supersonic... On most days since I made the change, I've been practising from one to several hours. Until about two weeks ago all was moving forward according to the standard script and at a reasonable pace.  Apart from a short e-mail every now and then, my current vocation requires almost no typing other than what I do privately. And so I experienced little of the "painful transition" referred to by some people. I struggled a bit with my few e-mails for a week or two, but mostly my experience has been an engaging and enjoyable one. As with many others who have made the transition to a non-qwerty layout, I've also used this occasion to train myself in proper typing technique in a more thorough and systematic way than I'd ever previously done on qwerty.
As I finished my fourth week, my speed (if I am to put my confidence in the rather imprecise typing speed tests available on the net) had fought its way up to about 45 wpm. Then one day, I visited this site and started reading the posts. Not long thereafter, all was chaos. I had been afflicted by the re-mapping bug! To cut a long story short, I decided to change to Mr DreymaR's ColemakCAW modification, which is similar to the DH-mods (I think that's what they're called). This made it possible to move Backspace to the even more desirable key of qwerty-H, which in the end I did. Then lastly, I went ahead and swopped the "Æ" and the "Ø". Not including the hyphen, which was moved to qwerty–B, I ended up re-mapping a whopping nine letters—more than half as many as I re-mapped when I changed to Colemak in the first place.
I don't regret it, but it was definitely a costly change. More than two weeks later, I've finally more or less inched my way back to where I was before it. All said, though, these days I am beginning to feel relatively comfortable with my typing. Still, I do notice that my memory is still not as "deep" and solid as it was on qwerty. That is, even though my typing speed can sometimes get close to what it was on qwerty, it's much more effected by how much I'm "with it". When tired and/or sleepy, both speed and accuracy are much affected. This is the same experience I've had during the early phases of studying foreign languages (although changing to a new keyboard layout is MUCH, much easier). And the remedy is—of course—just to keep at it. And not lose momentum until the new memory has gained a sure and solid foothold in fingers as well as brain. The plan for now is to keep up the schedule of at least one hour's practice on most days for at least a couple more months. And then we'll see ...

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this all sounds very familiar, i remember getting over the 40wpm barrier as being pretty key in the usability stakes - and you're already there in only 7 weeks

in my typeracer history i can see all the 'ravines' in my wpm where i implemented mods to vanilla colemak - they typically took me a lot longer than 2 weeks to cross

it sounds like you're making rapid progress

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Nice report.  Funny how the remapping bug always seems to bite sooner or later.

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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I've tried a lot, and dropped a lot of it. I like to change only what makes sense, not make changes just for the changes themselves. And some things stood the test of time, but most "hunches" didn't.

That's progress. Costly progress. Hope you too, get better soon! ;-)

Last edited by DreymaR (06-Apr-2016 10:55:39)

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Thanks for the replies and the encouragement! I had forgotten to subscribe to this topic, so I didn't know that there were any replies before just now.

Apart from mere wpm, I seem to be getting much more adept these days at typing in an ergonomically sound manner. This is partly to do with advice from a friend and former physiotherapist, but also very much thanks to the advice from DreymaR and others to move the bottom left row one key to the left. In another place I said how I had just recently made the change but had still to see the real benefits. Now I am definitely beginning to. It feels so much better to type now, and I can really sense how a long-standing muscular "irritation" in both wrists is starting to become allieviated now that they're not at such unhealthy angles relative to the keyboard and relative to each other. I'm actually quite amazed at how much better—and comfortable—my whole typing posture has become recently. Even my back automatically straigthens up, without me having to force the matter at all! And that considering that I'm somebody who's generally and more or less consistently always failed at the twin feat of improving posture and feeling more comfortable at the same time. (I guess the difference must be that typing really interests me, while physical exercise and the like sadly doesn't ... ) So thank you all!

So all is going well. I'm not entirely and perfectly happy with my re-mapping of K and Y to qwerty-O & P, respectively, but I'm sure it will do just fine for now.
I would be interested, by the way, to know what layout those with a lot of experience eventually settled for (seeing that some have evidently been through a few different ones).

Also wonder if there's a simple way of transferring one's personal layout to other computers without having to re-map anew each time.

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Nice! Yes, it's amazing how good the Angle mod really is. So simple, yet so good.

There are several ways of bringing your layout with you. You can have a USB stick with PortableKeyboardLayout (or just a simpler AutoHotKey hack) on it, alone or via a PortableApps menu (which I love!). I'm about to test out a USB-USB HID converter which may be plugged between a keyboard and a computer or other USB port to remap and add nice functionality.

My preferred Colemak-CAW[eD](Extend) layout is described in my sig topics, as I'm sure you're aware.

Again, I encourage careful remapping. So if your K/Y/P antics irk you, take a step back and go for a more conservative yet similarly beneficial solution! You'll thank yourself later for it. Personally, I think your original plan of putting the J on QWERTY-P was perfect – if you find a decent enough spot for the semicolon/colon on one of the neighboring symbol keys. Also, swapping Æ and Ø is completely unnecessary.

Last edited by DreymaR (11-Apr-2016 09:47:39)

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Let's see ... which of the Colemak-CAWs was it? It seems that there were a few. The one I'm using in a slightly modified way has B G D in qwerty—T G V, respectively, and H in qwerty—N. Ah, curl mod it's called. I thought that's the one you're using, but I guess maybe not?

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There's only one basic Colemak-CurlAngleWide[eD] – the one I use. But it's got an international and a Norwegian variant, and other locale variants of course.

Here's mine, as shown in the Big Bag:

    Cmk-ISO-eD-No-CurlAWide_90d_FShui.png
    Colemak [edition DreymaR], showing the Norwegian 'us' variant on an ISO board with the Curl(DbgHk)Angle and Wide(Slash) ergonomic mods.

There's Extend on top of that, naturally.

Back to your situation: One fairly non-invasive plan might be to put the Back on the Backslash key with a Wide mod!? I think it's still fairly easy to reach with the index finger down there, and yet you're still using proper Colemak(-DH) which will be an advantage when migrating – trust me. It should be safe enough to tuck the somewhat rarely needed backslash up on the Back key; there's also a measure of mnemonic sweetness to that...

You should be getting a 2% or so error rate soon enough. That means that the H should be more common than the Backspace after all. J is less common unless you're a very precise typist, but then again remapping letters is a bit messy.

Another low-damage way would be putting the Backspace on the semicolon key. But then there's the question of where to put the fairly common semi-/colon! It might have to go to the RBracket key but the Slash is also quite common so I personally wouldn't dislodge mine from there.

I do believe that you give the Backspace too good a position, all in all, and that's going to bite you later on.

Last edited by DreymaR (12-Apr-2016 10:02:18)

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DreymaR said:

Again, I encourage careful remapping. So if your K/Y/P antics irk you, take a step back and go for a more conservative yet similarly beneficial solution! You'll thank yourself later for it. Personally, I think your original plan of putting the J on QWERTY-P was perfect ...

Thanks a lot for the informative and in-depth replies. I'm sure you're right that I gave Backspace far too good a position. It's a little hard to gauge how often, on average, I need to reach out for it while learning a new keyboard layout. Obviously in the early phase of such a transition Backspace gets used a lot. Later on, though, it will hopefully be much less needed.

Before I read the last post, I decided to follow your advice to go back to my original modification, with Backspace re-mapped to Colemak-J, and otherwise (excepting the symbols) follow the Colemak-CurlAngleWide[eD]. (Glad to see I did get the right layout, after all.) Lately, as my typing's got better and more fluent and as I've been learning to type more "ergonomically", the disadvantage of having the right hand pinkie jump up to qwerty-P every time I had to type a Y became much more obvious. Funny how sensitive one becomes to fingers having to jump around more than necessary after switching to Colemak; all those years on qwerty it seemed the fingers hardly did anything but jump off the homepositions most of the time...

Moving the right hand keys one position to the right as you've done unfortunately doesn't work with my current keyboard as it would mean having two narrower-than-usual keys in home position ( narrow keys towards the perifery being a slightly unforgivable feature of my my keyboard).

What you said about a more conservative approach makes good sense: I don't want to have to spend too much time having to do all the trial-and-error work myself, so I'm grateful to be able to follow advice from people with more experience.

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I think that's a wise choice.

  q   w   f   p   b   [   ←   l   u   y   J 
   a   r   s   t   g   ]   k   n   e   i   o      Moving J right and BackSpace (shown as ←) in
 z   x   c   v   b   _   ;   h   m   ,   .

Looking at it from a more visual perspective, a WideAngle modded board with the J exchanged for a non-letter is very pretty! It adds area and symmetry to the "service island" in the middle of the board. :-)

But that leads to another idea: Once you've dislodged the J it'd be entirely possible to put the RBracket/Æ on that key, and Backspace on the former QWERTY-H! That'd look even prettier for sure... but in my opinion it'd also give the Backspace a more interesting position because now it'd be equally available to both hands! Granted, the stretch is a little bit longer in mm but to me it feels about the same in effort – plus the both-hands thing (and the pretty).

  q   w   f   p   b   [   ]   l   u   y   J 
   a   r   s   t   g   ←   k   n   e   i   o      Moving J right and BackSpace in, keeping brackets in line
 z   x   c   v   b   _   ;   h   m   ,   .

And it wouldn't be more disruptive/radical, especially since the symbol keys are considered less typing-flowy anyway. In fact, keeping the relative positions of the bracket keys is less disruptive than my current Wide mod!

As a final consideration to future modders: Moving the very rare J about is exactly what fuels the Tarmak progression! So this mod would be right up that alley, really, and easily implemented by Tarmak users at least.

What do you think? I'm thinking this could actually become one of the Wide mod options, if someone tries it out and likes it a lot...

There is one more added bonus or curse to this, depending on how you look at it: The semicolon (or Ø) key is moved out of the letter block which now holds J instead. Again, pretty! But where does is go? It could be in the center island with the other fairly often-used symbol keys, or in the old RBracket position which holds the Slash (or -) key in my Wide mod. The somewhat annoying thing is that both :; and /? (and their Norwegian keyboard counterparts) are not entirely uncommon (some programmers REALLY like their semicolon key!) and I don't think the old QWERTY-N position is that good. Well, that's frustrating.

One possibility could be to move the J to QWERTY-N instead, and keep :;/Ø where it was. For Norwegian alone, I don't think it'd matter much since the letter frequencies of J (1.2%) and Ø (0.9%) are quite similar. For English as well, the colon+semicolon together (0.15%) are about the same frequency as the surprisingly rare J (0.15%). The center "island" would be a little less prettier that way, granted, but functionality before aesthetics of course! Also, it's even less disruptive in the style of the DH-mods, not changing fingers for J.

  q   w   f   p   b   [   ]   l   u   y   ; 
   a   r   s   t   g   ←   k   n   e   i   o      Moving J down and BackSpace in
 z   x   c   v   b   _   J   h   m   ,   .

Moving the BackSpace into the middle, might we call this the Back-In-Space mod? :-)

  q   w   f   p   b   Å   Æ   l   u   y   Ø 
   a   r   s   t   g   ←   k   n   e   i   o      Moving J down and BackSpace in – Norwegian variant
 z   x   c   v   b   _   J   h   m   ,   .
Last edited by DreymaR (15-Apr-2016 10:13:41)

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Oops, my apologies. I think I must have made a mistake when I said I'm now using the Colemak-CurlAngleWide[eD]. It should, I believe, have read Colemak-CurlAngle[eD], as the layout of my current keyboard makes it impractical to move the characters on the right hand side one key to the right.

But that leads to another idea: Once you've dislodged the J it'd be entirely possible to put the RBracket/Æ on that key, and Backspace on the former QWERTY-H! That'd look even prettier for sure... but in my opinion it'd also give the Backspace a more interesting position because now it'd be equally available to both hands! Granted, the stretch is a little bit longer in mm but to me it feels about the same in effort – plus the both-hands thing (and the pretty).

Neat. It's a bit like the Gridmatrix (or whatever it's called) layout, if I remember correctly. Unfortunately, for the above-mentioned reasons I won't be able to apply it to my current keyboard. I did try out how it might feel, though. Compared to the Colemak-J position, it seemed to feel slightly more straining (unless one let go of the home position). But perhaps this is the best solution for the Wide mode, whereas Colemak-J might be the best position for non-Wide mode? Back-in-Space Mod sounds good, by the way.
So far as messing around with the symbols (other than comma and period, of course) is concerned, I never found that to cause much of a problem. I've used so many national variants in the past, each with its own distribution of symbols, never learnt their positions that thoroughly anyway, and not being a programmer I use them so seldom that ordinary memory with only rudimentary "muscle memory" seems good enough. I suppose most non-programmers would feel similarly. Semi-colon and colon, by the way, I've kept in their standard Norwegian positions, as upper-cases of comma and period,  respectively.

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Today's the 2nd of May, and I started learning Colemak on the 19th of February. So it's been 2½ months already. When I last checked my typing speed (using www.typingtest.com (typinghero has been recommended but doesn't seem to work with Android.)) it was only around 45 wpm, as compared with my previous speed on qwerty which I believe was somewhere in the environs of 50–60 wpm. Not moving along all that quickly, are we?... But in my case progress has been hampered by two re-mapping bouts that occurred on the way: First, one month after starting, I remapped no less than 10 keys, following the recommendations for DreymaR's Curl Mod (4 keys) and adding a few of my own (6 keys). Then, three weeks ago, I followed DreymaR's advice and re-remapped 4 of my own remappings, bringing three of them back to their previous positions and one to the standard Curl position. (I've posted images of some of the layouts I've been through in another thread:  User contributions» Re-mapping BACK-SPACE to an index finger key) Consequently, I've been working with my present layout for much less than 2½ months, making it hard to gauge precisely the actual rate of progress.

Tweaking the layout underways did, at first, make me lose some of my fear of messing around with key positions, as I could see how quickly the mind was able to pick up and remember the changes. In no long time I was able to type e-mails etc. with the new key positions, and it didn't seem like such a big deal. But then, over time, it became clear that to progress from that initial state of sort-of-remembering the new positions to the state of being so thoroughly familiar with them that I can just type away without giving it a second thought takes a loooong time. That, in turn, put the fear of God right back in my previously over-confident heart! So now I'm done—at least for a long time to come—with any more re-mappings of letters and am solemnly resolved to solely concentrate on perfecting my familiarity with what I've got at this point.
I'm not sure how many of the people who read these posts are newbies. To those who are old hands I can only apologize if, in the observations below, I'm only stating the all-to-obvious and/or what's been articulated with more clarity elsewhere in this forum. The thing is I've been contemplating the learning process and thought I'd share it with whoever might find it interesting and not obvious. As I see it, the process of mastering touch-typing, or any other skill, can be divided into three stages:
1) THE INTELLECTUAL STAGE is where one first learns the new positions so that one may type without looking at the keyboard and without making (too many) mistakes. This, at least for someone with previous touch-typing experience, can be achieved surprisingly quickly: Within a few hours to a day for the whole Colemak layout. When that happens it's easy to get overly confident. At this stage one has to rely on reasoning and rational thinking.
2) THE INTUITIVE STAGE is where one develops an intuitive sense, a so-called "muscle memory" for the new positionings, so that one can type with some fluency, mostly relying on a felt sense and without having to think much. This takes a lot of time, weeks or months, to develop.
... and lastly,
3) THE AUTOMATIC STAGE, which is the culmination of one's efforts. At this stage one doesn't have to think at all, and there's no doubt, no hesitation, as to how each letter is to be typed. The letter E can, so far as the fingers are concerned, only be typed by pressing one finger in one certain way. There's no wavering, and lack of concentration has minimal detrimental effect. This is the stage of blind, unquestioning faith! To get to this point really takes a lot of work. The automatic sense is the first to go when remappings occur. Suddenly there's more than one option: Let's see, K, that's typed by extending the right index finger directly to the left, or was it left and down? Hmm... One is thrown into that limbo realm where blind faith can no longer be relied upon and one has to again resort to thinking and memory and trial and error.

Intellectual understanding is the quickest to achieve and the slowest to perform; automatic "knowledge" is the slowest to achieve and the quickest to perform.

At this point, I've penetrated comfortably deep into the intuitive stage but am still far from the automaton's happy state of blind faith. To tell the truth, I'm a little bit unhappy with how long it's all taken, but since that is, to a large degree/mostly, the result of my own remapping antics, I will not complain.

So more re-mapping for me again, ever? Well, not exactly. I'm still re-mapping symbols and numbers as the spirit moves me. That's a totally different kettle of fish from re-mapping letters. Having to stop and think for a millisecond before typing a paranthesis has nowhere the same detrimental impact on typing speed and general fluency as having to do the same with a letter.

Regarding the modifications that I've made so far, I can't, based on my own experience, say for sure how much of an improvement the Curl Mod (Dreymar Edition) is compared to the standard Colemak layout. But I do BELIEVE it's better and will probably be able to feel this more directly as my typing gets better. On the other hand, there are three other modifications that I already clearly experience as conducive to a more comfortable and/or efficient typing experience. They are:

1) DreymaR's advice to move the letters on the bottom left hand row—ZXCVB (or ZXCVD, if you follow the Curl Mod *(ed DreymaR))—one key to the left. This is only fully possible on an *ISO keyboard, which has an extra key between Shift and qwerty-Z. At a stroke, this makes a normal keyboard vastly more ergonomical in that it allows the left hand to type in an angle that's almost the mirror image of the right one, and not, as it otherwise would, with an unhealthy inward twist at the wrist. I can only chime in with DreymaR on this one and advice everyone to do this right away! It can be done even if one decides to stick with the overall qwerty layout.

2) The other simple and clearly beneficial change was stevep99's advice to re-map the Caps key as an Alt key and then use it to enable typing numbers and symbols using the right hand. This modification, to my mind, can hardly be praised enough, and it doesn't interfere with anything of substance. The way I've done it is to map the numbers 1–2–3–4–5 to qwerty-<H>–<J>–<K>–<L>–<;>, and 6–7–8–9–0 to qwerty-<N>–<M>–<,>–<.>–</>, respectively. It truly works wonders: With this placement, not only are the numbers supremely easy to reach, it's also very intuitive— 1 & 2 for index finger, 3 for middle finger, etc. After only a few minutes, I was quicker and surer when typing numbers this way than when using the top row, even though I had been using the latter for thirty years!! Now I've almost completely stopped using the top, numerical row. For the remaining right-hand keys, I've mapped my most used symbols, such as " ' ( ) , to them.

3) Re-mapping Backspace to qwerty-Y (=Colemak-J; J, which is an extremely uncommon letter anyway, has been moved to qwerty-P/Colemak-<;>). This is my own personal contribution, and only a sense of proper decorum and personal humility prevents me from saying how much I like it :) It allows me to use my strong right-hand index finger to press a button that often requires a lot of repeated pressing (as opposed to using my weakest finger—the left pinkie—as per the original Colemak layout),  and I can do so without having to move the hand away from home position.

So. All in all, do I consider the change to Colemak worth all the hassles? Well, I think so. If nothing else, the standard qwerty layout is just so incredibly hopeless and such an affront to all ergonomic reason that, looking back, it's almost hard to fathom that I was able to put up with it for so many years. Yes, I'm glad to be rid of it!
That's it for now. Sorry if this post got a bit on the long side, and thanks for reading so far ... if anyone did. I may try to post again at a later point to inform about further progress...

Last edited by Bee Jay (06-May-2016 08:25:26)
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Nice to diary those insights.  I picked up the Dvorak layout in a day, that was the easy bit.  The hard bit was building up speed and fluency.  The weird thing is, that I can without too much effort, not use my right pinky at all, and still type.  I can adapt, rather quickly.  There are other mysterious powers at play.  Others talk about alternative fingerings for some words.  This is into the future when your body naturally seeks out some shortcuts.  Or rather not one finger always equates to one key (in the long run at least).

When I was looking at alternative layouts I wanted portability.  Dvorak ticked more boxes for me as it was available natively on the major operating systems.  The angle mod sounds great, but requires some tweaking on your behalf.  And your layout becomes more and more esoteric.  Which is great if it's your own personal tweak on your own computer.

I still find using Dvorak a pain when jumping between machines, even though it has support and is in many ways more portable than other layout hacks and customisations.

Small example being that I went to install Debian 8 the other day,  and the installer gave me the option of selecting Dvorak, but it seemed to forget that preference at some point.  Little annoyances, but annoyances all the same.  When helping out others with a little pair programming, a lot of the time I feel it too rude and embarrassing to add Dvorak to their machine.  So fallback to slow hunt and pecking with Qwerty, and look like an imbecile.

I try not to mention my layout habits to others, unless they notice.  In the pub the other week someone was moaning about alternative layouts in passing.  And I felt I should at least stick up for them, so I said I use Dvorak, at which point I was greeted with a 'You cock'.  And they didn't use Colemak either!  I think I met it with, it's pretty good, and that was about all the defense I could be bothered with, partly because I acknowledge the cons.

What I'm trying to say is that it should be really simple to switch between any layout very easily, tweak your own, move your layouts between devices easily, along with other tools you use for productivity, but sadly there is friction, and that can be chafing.

I should balance that with, if for the majority of time those hacks work great for you then it's worth the occasional scald.

Last edited by pinkyache (04-May-2016 09:32:15)

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Nice and interesting writeup, BeeJay!

I do think there's a fourth stage to layout learning like Pinky suggests: The stage where it's words or at least n-grams instead of just key positions. The 'organic' stage?

I wouldn't call your number remappings an 'alt' layer; that's very confusing as the Alt key is for using menus. The AltGr key (Alternate Graphics) is closer, but if you remap the keys themselves I'd call it an Extend mapping layer. I went for a NumPad setup on my second Extend layer, but if a two-row numeric setup suits you better then I guess that's fine too. I haven't tried such a setup but it might be intuitive enough. Looks a bit odd to put 67890- below when it's also above, but that's a minor detail.

Last edited by DreymaR (04-May-2016 17:02:18)

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Greetings Pinkyache,

I do of course acknowledge the drawbacks, in terms of compatibility, of using a layout that's different from everything else out there. That's the reason why I hesitated for a year or more before finally gathering up the courage to ditch qwerty. And that's the reason why, initially, I settled for a standard Colemak layout, and not, for example, Workman. Yet, anything outside of the realm of letters I consider not too much of a problem in that regard: I've used so many different national keyboard variants throughout my life, that I'm not very attached to the positions of the symbols. And as I said, having to slow down a little for numbers and symbols doesn't have such a devastating effect on typing fluency. So far all is well. I type using a tablet with a portable keyboard and can therefore bring my workstation with me wherever I go. For that and other reasons, I've hardly typed on other computers at all since I made the changes. When/if, in the future, that changes I might very well start to feel less nonchalant about the whole thing, though :)

I totally agree with you that the problem of portability, as you called it—the ability to use one's adopted layout wherever one goes—is one that should ideally have been worked out by now—it would have been so easy for the manufacturers of operating systems, keyboards, and so on. But it hasn't of course, since touch-typers are still surprisingly few and far between, and alternative layout touch-typers even more so. We're not a group with a lot of clout in the world. There are, however, some signs that this state of affairs may soon change for the better. A friend just showed me the newly developed Android for computers (forgot what it's called); it allows the user to carry his/her operating system with all the tweaks, including modified keyboard layouts, on a flash drive, and just use that with any computer encountered. In cases where it's necessary to use the OS that's already in place on a computer, which I imagine to be the case in most offices, this of course won't work. But the much-delayed "Textblade" might. You may have heard of it; it's a new type of super-small portable bluetooth keyboard that's also touted as being extremely good for touch-typing, much better that ordinary keyboards. The company making it has had some problems with the manufacturing process, and its release on the market has been delayed by more than a year. These days, though, it's just starting to trickle out to a select group of pre-order customers, and if it's anything as good and versatile as the hype would have you believe, then it might soon end up delegating ordinary keyboards to the historical dustbin—at least as far as touch-typists are concerned. One of its many useful little gimmicks is that the user can store his/her chosen layout on the keyboard itself, so that, at least in theory, it would be possible to use that layout even when hooking up with a computer that only has standard qwerty. Lovely!

So hopefully that's where things will be moving in the near future. In the meantime, of course, we/I will just have to endure with the imperfections of the present moment. I do hope though, that pub brawls between supporters of different keyboard layouts will not have to be part of it! Sorry to hear of you unfortunate encounter in the pub. Wonder what that bloke's real problem was. Perhaps he'd just quarrelled with the wife or been told off by the boss. Who knows?

Oh, and by the way: I was intrigued by what you said about people using alternative finger arrangements—alternative, that is, from how they usually do it. Isn't that more the sort of thing that people do when they're not yet totally fluent and are still fooling around, sort of? Or are you saying that there's a higher level of anarchy where the expert typist, who knows the rules, choses to disobey them—without incurring a penalty? I mean, is it really possible to be flexible with finger arrangement (as in your example, by not using the right pinkie) and still be able to type really fast and fluently? Hmm...

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DreymaR said:

I do think there's a fourth stage to layout learning like Pinky suggests: The stage where it's words or at least n-grams instead of just key positions. The 'organic' stage?

Let's see ... let me just look up "n-grams"... OK... Hmm... I think I'll have to chew on that one for a while... Sounds interesting.
Anyway, I think your point about words or "n-grams" is a very good one. I completely agree with you on that account. Except I think I would probably just include it in the three-stage model. Three or four or five stages—those are, after all, somewhat arbitrary divisions. "Organic" stage—I like that. Sounds much nicer than "automatic". What I like about words like "automaton" and "blind faith", though, is that they help to wake people up! Speaking from my experience with studying foreign languages, I can certainly testify that as one moves along, the basic building blocks—the remembered units—grow much bigger than individual letters. At first, an adult learner will tend to learn words and basic expressions by piecing together individual letters, much in the same way as a child starting to learn to read, deciphers each letter before mentally assembling them into words. So, "a-r-i-g-a-t-ō — arigatō". As one progresses, individual letters and phonemes become less and less conscious as the focus shifts toward fully formed words. At an even later stage, whole complex expressions and phrases get added, i.e. the phrase "Would that work for you?" is remembered as a whole unit, not so much as individual words which are then fitted together in line with the rules of grammar, etc. That's of course part of the reason why these later stages are later, and why it takes so long go get there: because they require storing such large amounts of specific information in order to be functional. As opposed to the very beginner's approach, where only a tiny toolbox consisting of extremely generalized information—such as the approximately 15–30 vowels and consonants of most languages—is utilized to cover everything. Again, this is quick to learn—or start learning—but slow in its application; as opposed to learning and remembering and familiarizing oneself with larger specific segments and structures, which is slow to learn but quick in its application.

Just from the top of my head—what I assume happens during the process of learning to touch-type according to one layout or other, is that all the information regarding the relationship between each finger and its assigned characters/keys gets worked out first, then as it slowly gets cemented into the intuitive, reflective-instinctual memory, the focus of learning gradually shifts towards whole words. And from that, probably towards whole phrases and sentences. At least on the level of words versus individual characters, this is obvious true—even after just a few months with my new layout: Words that I can quickly and easily type when I just follow the flow, can become rather cumbersome if I start thinking of each letter separately.

So with all that in mind, my proposed way of dividing the stages of the learning process into the categories of INTELLECTUAL (THOUGHT-BASED), FLUENT, & AUTOMATIC was probably a rather simplified and somewhat one-sided approach. Not wrong, perhaps, but only covering a small part of the basic spectrum.

As for Pinkyache's mention of using various finger arrangements for the same letters, I don't know... On a subtle level, I'm sure that is completely true. The letter "e" as part of "them" is certainly hit in a slightly different way than "e" as part of "grey"—just in the same way as the phonemes (vowels and consonants etc.) of a spoken language are influenced by their immediate "environment". But I do find it hard to fathom how using a completely different finger for the same key—if that indeed is what was meant—would be conducive to fast and fluent typing.

DreymaR said:

I wouldn't call your number remappings an 'alt' layer; that's very confusing as the Alt key is for using menus. The AltGr key (Alternate Graphics) is closer, but if you remap the keys themselves I'd call it an Extend mapping layer. I went for a NumPad setup on my second Extend layer, but if a two-row numeric setup suits you better then I guess that's fine too. I haven't tried such a setup but it might be intuitive enough. Looks a bit odd to put 67890- below when it's also above, but that's a minor detail.

Sorry about that. I'm not very well-versed yet in the proper terminology. Alt and AltGr is just what my re-mapping app calls these these keys, and they function identically. So an "Extend mapping layer" it is. I tried a few different ways of mapping the numbers and found my present arrangement to be, by far, the most intuitive one—it makes sense, after all the whole decimal system of counting is based on the fingers, so there's definitely a strong sense that the middle finger goes with 3, the ring finger with 4, the pinkie with 5; whereas the index finger goes with both 1 (being the finger most often used to represent that number, when using gestures) and 2 (being the 2nd finger). It just clicked with me right away. The same goes for 67890, but to a lesser degree. The fact that 67890 are also to be found on the top row doesn't, to my mind, make much of a difference, since the objective to a large extent was to avoid having to stretch the fingers all the way up there. I almost completely ignore the top row these days, and do so very blissfully indeed!

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pinkyache said:

In the pub the other week someone was moaning about alternative layouts in passing.  And I felt I should at least stick up for them, so I said I use Dvorak, at which point I was greeted with a 'You cock'.  And they didn't use Colemak either!

I never heard keyboard layouts being discussed in the pub before, I must be frequenting the wrong establishments!  I think it's much more likely to be a Qwerty user who would say something like that. Unfortunately there are some people in the world who are hostile to those who choose the unusual or unconventional.  People who have gone to the trouble of changing their layout are more likely to be sympathetic to others who have gone through the same process, even if they chose different layouts.


Bee Jay said:

The way I've done it is to map the numbers 1–2–3–4–5 to qwerty-<H>–<J>–<K>–<L>–<;>, and 6–7–8–9–0 to qwerty-<N>–<M>–<,>–<.>–</>, respectively.

This is an interesting approach. I have gone with the more conventional numpad layout, with 123, 456, 789 on consecutive rows, hoping the familiar pattern would make it easy to adapt to. However what I have noticed is when you use a numpad ordinarily, you tend to use a different technique from touch-typing on a keyboard. I found this transition to typing, say 3, 6 and 9 all with ring finger not as intuitive as I at first imagined. That said, I'll still stick with my numpad stylee mapping.

Mind you I wonder why you put 67890 on the bottom row? If you put them on the top row, you would still have access to decimal point in the same layer, which might be useful for entering decimals/currency amounts/etc without changing layers...

Last edited by stevep99 (05-May-2016 10:50:36)

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stevep99 said:

Mind you I wonder why you put 67890 on the bottom row? If you put them on the top row, you would still have access to decimal point in the same layer, which might be useful for entering decimals/currency amounts/etc without changing layers...

Good question. Why indeed? Not having to change the layer in order to type periods and commas would have been better, I agree. The reasons I chose otherwise are two-fold: First, I wanted to have my most used symbols in a better position, having just evicted them from the home row in order to make space for the numbers, and therefore chose to give them the row above (I assume this is the row you're referring to, the one just above the home row, when you say "top row", not the numerical row at the very top (which I've basically stopped using)). But more importantly, since I had already assigned Backspace to qwerty-Y, using the row above home row would have required me to either give up my much loved Back-space key (the app I'm using for re-mapping, "External Keyboard Helper Pro", does not allow more than one layer for function keys such as Backspace) or else move numbers 6–0 one key to the right, which would have messed up the whole intuitive finger-number correspondence.

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He likely meant the 'upper' row, being the row above the home row.

I agree that the upper row does seem more right for numbers. I see how your choices prevent you from that now, but in more general terms:

  -   -   -   -   -   *   6   7   8   9   0 
   -   -   -   -   -   ←   1   2   3   4   5      Num layer on a Wide layout with Back-In-Space
 -   -   -   -   -   _   +   $   %   ,   .

Something like that, based on the Back-in-the-middle strategy? Depending on what your actual numerical needs are, some helpful and otherwise hard-to-reach symbols could be smattered about as shown.

The left hand is holding the modifier, but could also be put to some additional use.

As an afterthought: This is why I generally advise against mixing functional keys like Back into your letter block proper. Your choice to put it on the J key led to trouble when you wanted something else on another layer of that key.

Last edited by DreymaR (06-May-2016 08:59:42)

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Your choice to put it on the J key led to trouble when you wanted something else on another layer of that key.

But it was worth it! :) 

If I do get myself a Texblade at some point, and then only use that and not other keyboards, I'd be able to have my cake and eat it too: It's got a "green" layer with different key codes (probably akin to the Fn layer in other keyboards), making it possible to have a functional key and something else in the same physical location. Until then I'll just have to put up with this minor hassle...

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DreymaR said:

He likely meant the 'upper' row, being the row above the home row.

For the sake of clarity, yes that's exactly what I meant.

Since 1 and 0 are the two most common digits, I am also a bit sceptical about having 0 in an awkward place.
What about something like...

  -   -   -   -   -  ←   6   7   8   9    
   -   -   -   -   -   *   1   2   3   4   5  
 -   -   -   -   -   _   +   0   ,   .   /

Which would allow you to keep your backspace at Qwerty Y, and provide a better 0 location?

Last edited by stevep99 (06-May-2016 11:29:12)

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That does look neat, SteveP. However, if you're thinking about BeeJay's layout, some tweaks are necessary as it's a Wide layout so there's one more key to the left of Back and I wouldn't move the comma/period from their normal positions which is one to the right from your suggestion.

Last edited by DreymaR (06-May-2016 11:38:42)

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Ah, hadn't realized we were talking Wide.

In that case, this might work for ISO at least. For ANSI it would be a pain as the 5 would disappear.

  -   -   -   -   -   -   ←   6   7   8   9   /    
   -   -   -   -   -   -   *   1   2   3   4   5  
 -   -   -   -   -   -   _   +   0   ,   .

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But then I wouldn't put the Backspace all the way into QWERTY-Y! Better to have it on QWERTY-H then, Back-In-The-Middle!

No, 5 doesn't disappear on an ANSI keyboard. But you have the whole thing one key too far to the right methinks? I read it as having 3-4-5 on fingers 3/4/5, so the index finger hits both 1 and 2. Maybe I'm wrong; it depends on whether BeeJay was referring to a Wide setup or not... ;-)

 (q) (w) (f) (p) (b)  =   6   7   8   9   -   / 
  (a) (r) (s) (t) (g)  ←   1   2   3   4   5   '      Num layer on a Wide layout with Back-In-Space
(z) (x) (c) (v) (d) (_)  *   0   +   ,   .

Like this, maybe? The slash is easy to reach on the normal layer, so it's plus/minus/asterisk that need most help (but I left a / in there nevertheless). I suppose that +- are most used.

I'm warming up to this. I think it may be better for numeric input than the NumPad-esque setups. At least for some. On the other hand, it may be a bit less intuitive for people who are used to Laptop Fn-NumPad layers? But the numbers at least seem very intuitive this way! On the other hand, either you have to use the index finger for five numbers or run the risk of running out of keys on ANSI boards...

Last edited by DreymaR (06-May-2016 12:51:57)

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Yeah, I don't like the idea of having to reach into the centre-column for 1.  In my version I was assuming the 1 would on colemak N.

Since there are really only four available home keys on each hand, maybe it would make sense to have something like this...

  -   -   -   -   -   -   ←   5   6   7   8     
   -   -   -   -   -   -   *   1   2   3   4    
 -   -   -   -   -   -   _   9   0   ,   .

Maybe 9 seems a bit out of place though?

Last edited by stevep99 (07-May-2016 11:26:24)

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