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    QWERTY 'ect' digram

    • Started by misterW
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    • Registered: 25-Jan-2017
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    I'm a tradtional typist, following the traditional fingering where each finger staggers the keys in this \ direction. Therefore, I've always typed QWERTY 'c' with my middle finger.

    From reading this forum and other typing webpages, I've started experimenting with some alternate fingering. Typing 'c' with the left index finger is quite common, and its taking a little bit of training for me.

    Regardless, the 'ect' digram is still a pain in the ass, regardless if you type 'c' with either finger, because of the same finger having to type two letters in a row with a big jump. I'm wondering if anyone has conquered this in a more comfortable way, or if they are just enduring. For reference, my goal is both comfort and speed. I believe that the most comfortable positions are usually the fastest anyway.

    I know this is a Colemak forum, but you guys seem to be the best place online to discuss this type of stuff.

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    That's not a digram. It's not even a bigram (the proper name I think) but a trigram! :-)

    Yes, of course we can talk even if you type QWERTY. Sure thing! So, in Colemak terms that's FCG (FCB for most Curl-modders). As you can see, not something that occurs in words. This is one of the reasons Colemak is good! It makes the most n-grams more comfortable.

    What you've encountered is a particularly bad case of a same-finger n-gram. Double row jumps, obviously bad. Short of getting a better layout (/shameless plug), you'll have to use alternative fingering if it's common enough to bother you. Master typists don't stick religiously to one-key-one-finger doctrines, but have some situational flexibility. It's not as hard as it may sound! And it's what lets Sean Wrona be possibly the fastest typist in the world (on long stretches at least) ... on QWERTY!

    So, what I'd do for that one is... lessee... E-4, C-3, T-2? Or, just suck up the index finger jump because it is strong and flexible after all, and go with the simpler E-3, C-2, T-2. If you let your hand "semi-float" (it shouldn't be too stuck in place!) it's really not that bad. I'd consider it. But I do use an Angle mod (or, as it were, CurlAngleWide!), so for me that's not the correct fingering of C and I might end up with the first option if the n-gram bothered me much (or just wing it now and then ... maybe). One problem is that if you do this kind of thing you risk missing the keys that you jump to, so it's not for the faint of heart. ;-)

    About C fingering: As a QWERTY typist you can use the Angle mod! You may have an ANSI board which doesn't allow the most elegant variant of that, but there's the Angle-Z that isn't bad. Look it up in my sig topics for instance.

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    A funny thing:

    One of the things some have been annoyed at with Dvorak, is the LS/SL same-finger bigram. Because adventurous people may be liable to use both alternative layouts and OSes, the common Linux terminal command 'ls -l' is a hurdle to more than a few Linux+Dvorak users. :-) You may of course make a shortcut/alias but that's a hassle.

    Well, I've used 'ls -lha' so much that it's pretty ingrained now. And lo and behold, the Curl/DH-mod messes with that in a bad way! LH/HL is no fun now. Lol.

    One easy answer to that is to type 'ls -lah' instead! But I'm not used to that. I'll try to switch. Heh.

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    DreymaR said:

    Well, I've used 'ls -lha' so much that it's pretty ingrained now. And lo and behold, the Curl/DH-mod messes with that in a bad way! LH/HL is no fun now. Lol.

    One easy answer to that is to type 'ls -lah' instead! But I'm not used to that. I'll try to switch. Heh.

    LHA isn't great even with default Colemak. I suppose you could use alternate fingering for it, but still not as good as LAH.  Or, what about HAL?

    Wouldn't it be freaky if you one day you typed "ls -hal" and got an error message:
    "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that"

    Using Colemak Mod-DH with some additional ergonomic keyboard mods.

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    Haha Steve, I thought about that! But in the end, practicality won over style points. The -H bigram is a little worse than the -L one, as the latter means no stretching (given a number row minus key placement).

    Lah it up all you want, I care about these little things. ;-)

    [Edit: It occurs to me that 'ls -halitosis' is an actual command. Oh my. Maybe 'ls -halp' is in order now?]

    Last edited by DreymaR (26-Jan-2017 13:08:03)

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    DreymaR said:

    So, what I'd do for that one is... lessee... E-4, C-3, T-2? Or, just suck up the index finger jump because it is strong and flexible after all, and go with the simpler E-3, C-2, T-2. If you let your hand "semi-float" (it shouldn't be too stuck in place!) it's really not that bad.

    432 is awkward. My 332 is trained pretty hard so I'm moderately fast. I'm sure I could get 322 the same.

    What about these for Qwerty ECT:

    L3 L2 L3
    or
    L3 L2 R2  !!

    That R2 might be the best yet. And I'm pretty controlled with reaching from/with the right shoulder so I will give it a shot.

    Qwerty 'SUBJECT' alternate fingering:
    L4 R3 R2 R3 L3 L2 R2 !


    stevep99 said:

    LHA isn't great even with default Colemak. I suppose you could use alternate fingering for it

    LH on Colemak looks like UH on Qwerty, which would be an easy 32 roll alternate

    Last edited by misterW (04-Feb-2017 06:42:28)
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    Your suggestions seem a little over the top. Unless you're very acrobatic and know exactly where your home positions are at all times, it'll be hard to pull those off at high speeds I think!?

    3–2–3 isn't all bad, actually. Plus, it's kinda fun (yeah, I'm teh Übergeek...). In that vein, 4–2–3 might also be considered?

    But do what works for you. :-)

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    DreymaR said:

    Your suggestions seem a little over the top. Unless you're very acrobatic and know exactly where your home positions are at all times, it'll be hard to pull those off at high speeds I think!?

    3–2–3 isn't all bad, actually. Plus, it's kinda fun (yeah, I'm teh Übergeek...). In that vein, 4–2–3 might also be considered?

    423 is better than 432 but still tough for me

    I think using R2 for 'T' at high speeds will be fine. Its actually suggested by another guy, thats probably where I remember it from:

    https://www.keyhero.com/practice-typing … m-average/

    In the comments he suggests using L2 to type the 'Y' in 'anyone'. Same theory

    Last edited by misterW (26-Jan-2017 16:49:25)
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k67y-4J1MDk

    I'm seeing her using left index for 'y'


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOCXDeXgfHQ

    Here I'm seeing her type 'th' combo with left middle and left index. Thats quite extreme

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    This genius from typeracer chat just suggested this:

    e - middle
    c - THUMB
    t - index

    mind blown again

    Last edited by misterW (07-Feb-2017 06:05:42)
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    Wow, that's an awesome thought. :-)

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    After some practice, I pretty much exclusively use the THUMB on C with words having the ECT trigram.

    However if the gram is ECTIVE, which many words have, I will use Left 32 (middle,index) on EC, and then Right 24 (index,ring) on the TI combo. This is nice once you get it drilled

    Last edited by misterW (10-Feb-2019 15:44:54)
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    fdb fdb fdbl fdbl

    I'm glad I use Colemak. The 'fdbl' n-gram isn't particularly common. And 'ect(i)' corresponds to QWERTY 'jcfl' on Colemak which isn't hard. ;-)

    I know, probably not what you need to hear! But still what I need to say.  Θώθ

    Last edited by DreymaR (12-Feb-2019 09:50:58)

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