Hi,
I cant find the double-quote (") key (the one used e.g. for exact phrase searching on google).
It is not listed on https://colemak.com/Multilingual
Can somebody help?
Best regards,
Jakob
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Where is the double-quote (") key?
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I am slightly puzzled by this question. The double quote key hasn't moved, so I'm not sure why you would need to search for it. It is still in its original position. Hold down shift and press the single quote key (after the colon/semicolon key and before the enter key).
My typing speed can be viewed at http://www.ryanheise.com/typing-test/re … den_Hammer
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Maybe you're used to a non-US layout? If so, you/we should try getting you a national layout instead. Let us know whether you come from a non-US QWERTY.
But the principle will be the same: Rarely used punctuation (and by rarely, I mean in comparison with the letters that are used several times in your average couple hundred keypresses) should not move but stay where people are used to finding it. Unless there are very very good reasons for it, of course.
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Found the right key now - I'm using a Danish keyboard layout, so the double quote was not in the "usual" place for me and I could not locate it via the picture at https://colemak.com/wiki/images/8/80/Co … yout_2.png . (For future reference, it is on the key where the Danish special character 'ø' usually resides.)
Perhaps it would be a good idea to collect pictures similar to https://colemak.com/wiki/images/8/80/Co … yout_2.png , but for different countries keyboard layouts. That would help beginners quite a bit, I think.
Thanks a bunch,
Jakob
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What is needed would actually just be a layout picture that includes symbols with depressed shift and alt keys. I believe that someone has made something like that, but I'll have to look around for it.
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Jakob, you could use my layout if you want to? It's Norwegian, so all I think would have to be done would be to switch the Æ (which is more common in Denmark) and Ø (which is more common in Norway) - our two countries never managed to make one common layout but almost.
There may be a couple of other things to do; I don't quite remember. At any rate, my layout is a Colemak for most practical purposes but has lots of extra AltGr stuff thrown in. If you don't need that, you can just ignore it. If you do need it, it's there.
I'd really advocate using a Danish Colemak if you type Danish at all. Using the odd placements that the US Colemak gives you for the Scandinavian characters and punctuation will be too annoying and slow otherwise.
Can you use MS Keyboard Layout Creator yourself? Assuming you use Windows - tell us if you're not.
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Hi!
I'm new here, I'm Danish, and I'm considering learning Colemak.
DreymaR, your link seems to be dead. Can you fix it?
I'm an Ubuntu user.
/Erik
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Ummm, yes, it may be dead. I've actually discontinued the Norwegian Colemak because I found it better to learn and use the US setup. That comes with Linux too you know!
Downsides:
* You'll have to relearn some symbol keys
* The symbol mappings on your Danish keyboard will be wrong
* In particular, the parentheses will move one key to the right which can be confusing at first
Upsides:
* You'll get more sensible mappings (really!)
* You'll never again be lost on all those US mapped keyboards that pop up in your life (say, writing a password when the layout has been reset to default US mappings)
* You can use more out-of-the-box layouts like the Colemak in Linux X11
* Symbol mappings for coding and shortcuts will be more sensibly placed since these usually were invented by US layout users (for instance, the tilde and caret)
* The layout users of the world can unite and not keep the hopeless system of scattering symbols randomly around differently for each country!
So, for the æøå characters you either:
- Use the Compose key (with ae, o/, aa) or the default Colemak mappings for those if you use Danish very little
- Backup the Colemak Symbols file (under /usr/share/x11/xkb) and edit in a few but important changes to make it all more sensible for us.
I've been planning to do the latter but ... yeah, I think I'll do it very soon! :)
My recommended mappings are:
- The most common special letter (it's a bit of a toss-up but I'd recommend the ø) goes on plain VK_102/LSGT (the key between the Shift and Z - or as I have it, in the middle)
- The other two go to the bracket keys (æ on [, å on ])
Getting back to that, yeah. Shai's original mappings for the AltGr plane don't really work well enough for someone who actually uses Scandinavian I feel.
Last edited by DreymaR (21-Feb-2011 09:59:38)
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Okay, here's a set you may try pasting into a /usr/share/x11/xkb/symbols/us file instead of the colemak that's there beforehand:
// Colemak symbols for xkb on X.Org Server 7.x
// 2006-01-01 Shai Coleman, https://colemak.com/ . Public domain.
// 2011-02-21 Øystein Bech "DreymaR" Gadmar: Adaptations to Scandinavian and dead keys [beta!]
partial alphanumeric_keys
xkb_symbols "colemak" {
include "us"
name[Group1]= "USA - Colemak";
// Alphanumeric section
key <TLDE> { [ grave, asciitilde, dead_tilde, dead_tilde ] };
key <AE01> { [ 1, exclam, exclamdown, onesuperior ] };
key <AE02> { [ 2, at, masculine, twosuperior ] };
key <AE03> { [ 3, numbersign, ordfeminine, threesuperior ] };
key <AE04> { [ 4, dollar, cent, sterling ] };
key <AE05> { [ 5, percent, EuroSign, yen ] };
key <AE06> { [ 6, asciicircum, dead_caron, asciitilde ] };
key <AE07> { [ 7, ampersand, odiaeresis, Odiaeresis ] };
key <AE08> { [ 8, asterisk, otilde, Otilde ] };
key <AE09> { [ 9, parenleft, leftsinglequotemark, leftdoublequotemark ] };
key <AE10> { [ 0, parenright, rightsinglequotemark, rightdoublequotemark ] };
key <AE11> { [ minus, underscore, endash, emdash ] };
key <AE12> { [ equal, plus, multiply, division ] };
key <AD01> { [ q, Q, adiaeresis, Adiaeresis ] };
key <AD02> { [ w, W, aring, Aring ] };
key <AD03> { [ f, F, atilde, Atilde ] };
key <AD04> { [ p, P, oslash, Ooblique ] };
key <AD05> { [ g, G, dead_ogonek, asciitilde ] };
key <AD06> { [ j, J, dstroke, Dstroke ] };
key <AD07> { [ l, L, lstroke, Lstroke ] };
key <AD08> { [ u, U, uacute, Uacute ] };
key <AD09> { [ y, Y, udiaeresis, Udiaeresis ] };
key <AD10> { [ semicolon, colon, dead_diaeresis, 0x1002039 ] };
key <AD11> { [ bracketleft, braceleft, aring, Aring ] };
key <AD12> { [ bracketright, braceright, ae, AE ] };
key <BKSL> { [ backslash, bar, dead_grave, 0x100203a ] };
key <AC01> { [ a, A, aacute, Aacute ] };
key <AC02> { [ r, R, dead_grave, asciitilde ] };
key <AC03> { [ s, S, ssharp, asciitilde ] };
key <AC04> { [ t, T, thorn, THORN ] };
key <AC05> { [ d, D, eth, ETH ] };
key <AC06> { [ h, H, hstroke, Hstroke ] };
key <AC07> { [ n, N, ntilde, Ntilde ] };
key <AC08> { [ e, E, eacute, Eacute ] };
key <AC09> { [ i, I, iacute, Iacute ] };
key <AC10> { [ o, O, oacute, Oacute ] };
key <AC11> { [ apostrophe, quotedbl, dead_acute, dead_doubleacute ] };
key <AB01> { [ z, Z, ae, AE ] };
key <AB02> { [ x, X, dead_circumflex, asciitilde ] };
key <AB03> { [ c, C, ccedilla, Ccedilla ] };
key <AB04> { [ v, V, oe, OE ] };
key <AB05> { [ b, B, dead_breve, asciitilde ] };
key <AB06> { [ k, K, dead_abovering, asciitilde ] };
key <AB07> { [ m, M, dead_macron, asciitilde ] };
key <AB08> { [ comma, less, dead_cedilla, guillemotleft ] };
key <AB09> { [ period, greater, dead_abovedot, guillemotright ] };
key <AB10> { [ slash, question, questiondown, asciitilde ] };
key <CAPS> { [ BackSpace, BackSpace, BackSpace, BackSpace ] };
key <LSGT> { [ oslash, Ooblique, endash, emdash ] };
key <SPCE> { [ space, space, space, nobreakspace ] };
include "level3(ralt_switch)"
};I moved the Scandinavian letters as described, and the Icelandic eth/thorn to t/d as they should be in my opinion. Also, the acutes were moved to compose-key-like positions (AltGr+apostrophe gives dead_acute for instance, Backslash got the grave and the others are on the same key as their non-deadkey counterparts) which is another pet peeve of mine. Anything that had to move out of the way was mostly put away pretty haphazardly so it's in no way a final version but it should suffice to write Danish much better than before I think!
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Hi DreymaR,
just a suggestion; it's shorter, and much clearer what exactly you changed, if you post a "diff' of the original vs. your file (diff -u oldfile newfile), instead of just the whole new file. Others can apply this using "patch".
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Yeah, I still write a lot of Danish so I'm pretty sure I will use a localized version -- following your advice earlier in this thread :-)
I also have many programs where the US key locations are much better for shortcuts (and in vim, I've remapped dash to slash to get the search key where it is for US users) and even some that cannot even be typed on Danish qwerty. But I also like the idea of not having to relearn the locations of non-frequent keys for Colemak, so I was planning to put 'ø' and 'å' on the US apostrophe and '[' keys, resp., so they will stay where they were on the Danish qwerty. And then 'æ' on the US Colemak semicolon and keep LSGT as it were. (Inspired by this thread: https://colemak.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=52).
What are other Scandinavians doing? It would be nice to reach some kind of official localized layout.
BTW, in the mean time, I made my own xkb symbols entry which is just loading the Danish qwerty and replacing the 17 chars:
partial alphanumeric_keys
xkb_symbols "colemak" {
include "dk"
name[Group1]= "Denmark - Colemak";
// Alphanumeric section
key <AD03> { [ f, F, atilde, Atilde ] };
key <AD04> { [ p, P, oslash, Ooblique ] };
key <AD05> { [ g, G, dead_ogonek, asciitilde ] };
key <AD06> { [ j, J, dstroke, Dstroke ] };
key <AD07> { [ l, L, lstroke, Lstroke ] };
key <AD08> { [ u, U, uacute, Uacute ] };
key <AD09> { [ y, Y, udiaeresis, Udiaeresis ] };
key <AD10> { [ ae, AE, odiaeresis, Odiaeresis ] };
key <AC02> { [ r, R, dead_grave, asciitilde ] };
key <AC03> { [ s, S, ssharp, asciitilde ] };
key <AC04> { [ t, T, dead_acute, dead_doubleacute ] };
key <AC05> { [ d, D, dead_diaeresis, asciitilde ] };
key <AC07> { [ n, N, ntilde, Ntilde ] };
key <AC08> { [ e, E, eacute, Eacute ] };
key <AC09> { [ i, I, iacute, Iacute ] };
key <AC10> { [ o, O, oacute, Oacute ] };
key <AB06> { [ k, K, dead_abovering, asciitilde ] };
include "level3(ralt_switch)"
};Do you know how to "reload" an xkb symbols file? The layouts are somehow cached, so when I make a change, I need to give the variant a new name, e.g., xkb_symbols "colemak2", "colemak3", etc. to be able to use it.
(Also, do you know how to get the new layout into the gnome keyboard layout menu?)
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erw said:
Do you know how to "reload" an xkb symbols file? The layouts are somehow cached, so when I make a change, I need to give the variant a new name, e.g., xkb_symbols "colemak2", "colemak3", etc. to be able to use it.
"setxkbmap <layout>" to load it again.
(Also, do you know how to get the new layout into the gnome keyboard layout menu?)
You have to add it to the xml index files for Gnome to list it. I haven't bothered (using setxkbmap), but DreymaR posted detailed instructions here.
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ghen said:
erw said:Do you know how to "reload" an xkb symbols file? The layouts are somehow cached, so when I make a change, I need to give the variant a new name, e.g., xkb_symbols "colemak2", "colemak3", etc. to be able to use it.
"setxkbmap <layout>" to load it again.
Well, that's what I tried, but there is some kind of cache that takes precedence over the actual symbol file.
Anyway, it seems I found the "cache"... At least it works now after deleting all the files in /var/lib/xkb/ :-)
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Thing is, the standard Colemak isn't using the <LSGT> at all (merely making it a clone of the minus key) so it's up for grabs! And I've found it very convenient for the purpose of mapping the most used local glyph to, whichever country you're from.
I did make a point of keeping the letter å in its place as you see, also because it's the second most common of the special glyphs. For the most common special letter (which in Norway is ø and in Denmark æ, just to illustrate the chaos we have to deal with!) I did make the deadkey acute accent a priority as it's so very important and necessary to English typists as well. So it had to go and frankly I don't think it deserved the apostrophe position anyway - but I compensated by putting it on that non-AltGr <LSGT> key so it's very easily accessible for me. After that, the other bracket was the key that seemed most logical to me and indeed I find it easy to remember and use.
NB: The detailed description ghen refers to is for adding a new KEYBOARD definition, not a LAYOUT definition! Your task should be a bit simpler than that I hope. I may get back to you if you need help with it. But check the xorg.conf for the layout listings if I remember correctly, and it's entirely possible to put your new layout into a separate file so it's easy to keep backups and reimplement it on new installs. Then you should only have to edit in a few lines here and there (such as the xkb/symbols.dir file).
ghen: Good tip on the diff. Not used to all these gritty Linux tricks yet, but loving the possibilities. May get back on that, although my solution above is pretty makeshift for now.
Last edited by DreymaR (22-Feb-2011 08:58:17)
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But my LSGT is not up for grabs, I use it for LS and GT! :-)
I would also like to use the US layout but it's just not feasible. So I intend to keep all my punctuation as it were on my Danish qwerty because they're used so little compared to the letters.
Also, I analysed 40 KB of my emails (with non-handwritten text removed) and found 'å' to be the most frequent with 1.35%, 'æ' second with 0.64% and 'ø' last with 0.52%.
How many Scandinavians are using Colemak?
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Yeah, the old LSGT. As you can see, the standard Colemak makes nothing of it like I mentioned, but the standard Scandinavian layout has it as the < > key. I used to have that, too.
But as also mentioned, I have now moved on to the standard Colemak layout, with Scandinavian letters added. There are many in my opinion good reasons for that: For one, all sorts of coding practices now make sense. I had a bitch of a time trying to write backticks everywhere for a couple of coding languages with the only backtick available being on the grave dead key on AltGr+<AE12>!
And the LSGT key was actually another reason for me to like the change: I kept forgetting whether the shifted or unshifted version was the right one, and if you want to write an empty or nearly empty set of brackets (like <> or <\>) it's really pesky. You easily run into same-finger issues that make typing stressful and disrupt flow, and I find that the LS and GT on the period and comma keys flow very well indeed. So much easier to use the US-type layout.
I actually got hold of a keyboard with a US layout AND a pc105 key set! But they are rare, unfortunately.
I wouldn't move the 'å' to another key even if it's quite common as you say, since I find that it's well placed on the key it always used to be on! That's easy to remember as well.
One thing I forgot to tell you: If I were to type a lot of a Scandinavian language and very little coding sometimes, I'd make two nearly equal layouts to change between: One that has the bracket keys on top and the å and æ on AltGr mappings, and the other layout would be the other way around! But I haven't seen the need for such a layout myself since it turns out that even if I write up to 50% Norwegian I'll find the AltGr mappings comfortable enough for use. After all, as illustrated above we are talking about a percent or two of all written characters, no more. I probably use them more than the square brackets on a text-intensive day, but not enough so to make me want the hassle of keeping track of two layouts.
Last edited by DreymaR (23-Feb-2011 10:00:47)
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While æøå are only a percent or two of all characters, that's still pretty frequent. 'å' alone is more frequent than period, meaning there's more than one 'å' per sentence on average. (When 'e' takes up a whopping 15% of all your characters, most others seem infrequent). (And to my surprise, 'å' is more frequent than both 'b' and 'j').
I'm used to typing a space after the dead key for tilde, caret and backtick and it doesn't feel so weird when it's all I've been using -- and $(blah) is the modern (and nestable) version of backticks in bash anyway. I do use tilde a lot in interactive bash, though. Hmm.
I think flow is more important for writing natural languages, so having < and > on the same key is not that bad to me. But having the extra key is nice for sure -- in my Windows days, I used it as an extra modifier to use the home row for arrow keys and the like.
Anyway, yeah, I'll admit it: The US layout is nice, and I could see an advantage of taking some strain off my pinky by using LSGT for 'æ'. Then I could move < and > to the US positions, losing the Danish semicolon and colon, but they already have a dedicated key on Colemak, so it would work.
Or I could go full US Colemak and then just use LSGT, '[' and ']' for 'æ', 'å' and 'ø', respectively (so at least 'å' stays at its Danish qwerty position). But then where do I put '[' and ']'? Plus I have to learn all new keys for the punctuation, which -- even thought it makes a lot of sense for programming -- will take a long long time.
If however one of the options (or another one altogether) was chosen to be the standard Danish Colemak (with proper reasoning, of course), I'd feel a lot better about learning it. Which is why I'm asking what other Scandinavians are doing? If there are any?
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I have the '[' and ']' in their default US/Colemak positions, and then the 'å' and 'æ' (or in your case, 'å' and 'ø' I supppose) on the AltGr mappings for these keys. But as I tried to explain above, if you were to type a lot Danish I'd recommend doing it the other way around. And if you switch a lot between programming and typing in Danish (I don't think you do both at the same time?!) you could make two almost identical layouts with this difference and switch between them. But I don't do the latter myself.
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Ok, so would you move [ and ] to the AltGr mappings for å and æ/ø? And what about { and }? I understood the part about two layouts, but I'm usually multi tasking, so I'd like to have one single layout (optimized for Danish rather than programming).
Anyway, I might as well let loose and experiment, rather than thinking about standardizing.
I've already changed my Danish dead <AD12> key to produce tilde with a single press and caret with shift+press, and then moved the dead versions of those two to when it is used with AltGr. Wouldn't have thought about it unless you mentioned the dead keys!
Also, I already use caps lock for control, so maybe I should use my LSGT as backspace?
On to experiment!
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