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    Russian layout for natives

    • Started by martian
    • 7 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • From: Kyiv, Ukraine
    • Registered: 17-Aug-2020
    • Posts: 11

    Firstly, we should delineate: if you need Russian rarely, then you go with Rulemak and don't fool around, because it's easier to learn and you don't really care about it being ergonomic. But for people like me, who type in Russian more than they do in English, its similarity to Colemak is irrevelant. I want Russian Colemak — not in the way it's phonetically similar to Colemak, but in the way it's ergonomic at the same level. ЙЦУКЕН maybe not that bad as QWERTY, but it hurts my index fingers a lot. So here I announce the search for ergonomic Russian layout. There are 3 options I can think about:

    1. Using some keygen like Carpalx (here is an alternative written in Rust by Tretygon). It seems promising because we are not professionals and we won't create Colemak in world of Russian, but with help of software like this it may be possible. Though it's not a perfect solution. Personally I like Colemak more than QGMLWY, even though according to Carpalx it should be 9,3% better than Colemak.
      2. There is an alternative Russian layout called Diktor. Worth a try. (ъ is shift+ь)
      dd77935e6b65b5b49aad609da43157db.jpg
      3. u/yurikhan proposed using adopted Bulgarian layout, e.g.:

      э , у е и ц   ч к с д з ш
      ъ Ь Я А О ж   г Т Н В М щ
        ю й ы ё ф   х п р л б
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    • From: Kyiv, Ukraine
    • Registered: 17-Aug-2020
    • Posts: 11

    I read a lot of pretty things about Diktor, it's a nice layout. The only thing I would do, since we have both comma and period, is to make their position like in Colemak. Maybe just to swap:

    ц ь я п г    з в к д ч ш щ
    у и е о а    л н т с р й
    ф э х ы ю    б м , . ж
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    • From: Oslo, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 4,953

    Of course CarpalX layouts look good to CarpalX. This is what we in my country call "letting the billy goat watch the sack of oats".  /(⁎≧∇≦)\

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • From: Kyiv, Ukraine
    • Registered: 17-Aug-2020
    • Posts: 11

    No, I think swapping is a bad idea, it messes the balance too much. Common digram «па» becomes one-fingered. Gotta accept punctuation in a Dvorak style, not that bad actually.
    Also have to shuffle right pinkie letters a little since I want to use wide mode here (and angle too). So something like this (щ is option + ш):

    ц ь я , .    з в к д й ч ш
    у и е о а    л н т с р
    ф э х ы ю    б м п г ж

    Because й is more common than ч and ш.

    Maybe also to implement the Curl mode? People who created Diktor thought that lateral & home row is better than lateral & bottom row, but we know this is not true. So I'll also swap a and ю, л and б to get this:

    ц ь я , .    з в к д й ч ш
    у и е о ю    б н т с р
    ф э х ы а    л м п г ж

    Ladies and Gentlemen, here you can see the Diktor-CAW! I can't stop. Why do I have to create something unique every time?

    Last edited by martian (18-Aug-2020 14:39:24)
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    • From: Belgium
    • Registered: 26-Feb-2008
    • Posts: 463
    martian said:

    But for people like me, who type in Russian more than they do in English, its similarity to Colemak is irrevelant.

    Nevertheless you will still frequently use the Latin script for URL's, e-mail addresses, foreign (brand) names, etc.  So you will still benefit from having a similar or otherwise easy to learn Latin layout.

    I imagine it must be a pain for most Russians to learn and use both йцукен and qwerty?

    Last edited by ghen (18-Aug-2020 19:23:38)
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    • From: Kyiv, Ukraine
    • Registered: 17-Aug-2020
    • Posts: 11
    ghen said:

    Nevertheless you will still frequently use the Latin script for URL's, e-mail addresses, foreign (brand) names, etc.  So you will still benefit from having a similar or otherwise easy to learn Latin layout.

    Of course you can't live without an English layout, haha. I agree that using Rulemak would be much easier, but I simply can't. I truly respect and understand your desire to unite different languages under Colemak, but for languages that are too different from English it's not possible, only with cost of less comfortable layout, which, I think, goes against reasons the Colemak was created. We need some middle ground — not to create a new layout for every language, but also not to create bad layouts with only goal to be equal to Colemak. I'll happily use Colemak for German, but for frequent typing in Russian & Ukrainian it's inappropriate. Though I'm open to change my mind, if someone could compare Rulemak with йцукен and Diktor, like it's done here.

    ghen said:

    I imagine it must be a pain for Russians to learn and use both йцукен and qwerty.

    Being bilingual (or even trilingual in Ukraine) is already not easy, so having to use different layouts doesn't make a big difference, haha.

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    • From: Belgium
    • Registered: 26-Feb-2008
    • Posts: 463

    There are some positive Rulemak experiences from native Russian and Bulgarian speakers on this forum, for example here.  Of course each of them made their own tweaks, but the general concept of a Colemak-based Cyrillic layout was considered valuable, and definitely an improvement over ЙЦУКЕН.

    You know, the most frequent letters are largely the same for many Indo-European languages, so at least the Colemak-transliterated home row АРСТ НЕИО (or НЕІО) should be a good starting point for a Russian/Ukrainian layout.

    Last edited by ghen (18-Aug-2020 21:09:58)
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    • From: Kyiv, Ukraine
    • Registered: 17-Aug-2020
    • Posts: 11

    Now this is interesting. I spent some time to get 15 wpm with Diktor, but it seems I'll have to switch again. Gonna create my own Rulemak++, will write to that topic from now on. Any way to close this topic?

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