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Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

  • Started by boli
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  • From: Switzerland
  • Registered: 21-Aug-2007
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erw said:

Sucks that it can't be remapped. How wobbly is "wobbly"? If you can find a way to describe it :-)

Those keys are rubber, and not hard plastic like the other keys. If you press them off-center (near an edge of the top area), it will tilt in that direction rather than go straight down - that's the wobble I mean. Mostly they key activates even if it's pressed off-center like this.

But if I used a pedal to shift keypad mode, that might be a remedy.

Should be, but then again do you really want a pedal? I like my feet's freedom. But any way to not use the wobbly keys overly much is good. Personally I use COMMAND + OPTION + 2/3/4/5 for my four virtual desktops (or Spaces as Apple likes to call them :P)

Luckily I use CTRL+C instead of escape in vim, otherwise I would need escape every few seconds!

Good. :)

Earlier you wrote that the delete and enter keys have a different shape, but does that mean that they can't physically be swapped or just that they'd get unintended slopes?

The latter. The base area is the same, but the top areas are sloped in different directions. So swapping should work, but probably won't feel natural.

Yet another question: Is it comfortable to ALT+Tab on a kinesis? I do this quite a lot, so I hope it will be.

On the Mac it's COMMAND + Tab, which is very comfortable. ALT is one key further toward the center, so the thumb has to spread a little more to reach it, so it's a little worse, but still reasonably comfortable.

Last edited by boli (11-Jun-2011 15:31:55)
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boli said:

do you really want a pedal?

Yes, it's actually something I've wanted for a long time. Just like the thumbs, why not use the feet?

I think I'm going to get the triple pedal.

If I don't feel like reaching for the pedals once in a while, I can just use my hands. The functions of the pedals should be redundant anyway.


boli said:

On the Mac it's COMMAND + Tab, which is very comfortable. ALT is one key further toward the center, so the thumb has to spread a little more to reach it, so it's a little worse, but still reasonably comfortable.

Ok, I'll just see how I can distribute the thumb keys. If I have Ctrl on Capslock and maybe on a pedal, I can put Alt above delete for easier access.


I'm going to order it with Swedish QWERTY since they don't make Danish QWERTY or Colemak. The Danish and Swedish qwerties have some small, silly differences, but at least most of the punctuation will be as on my other Danish QWERTY boards including laptops. That's more important to me than switching to "standard" QWERTY -- sorry, DreymaR.

I'm looking at the different places I can order. Kinesis itself has a nice return policy (if I for some reason don't like it), but the shipping cost and import duty is massive. I'm also awaiting an answer from their Swedish reseller.

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I've been thinking lots about pedals too. But I've come off it. I already have too many nice tweaks to my keyboard that make me sad and a little bit confused when I'm away from it; I just wouldn't want one more after all. At least, the other tweaks are mostly portable (in the electronic sense of that word)!

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DreymaR said:

I already have too many nice tweaks to my keyboard that make me sad and a little bit confused when I'm away from it; I just wouldn't want one more after all. At least, the other tweaks are mostly portable (in the electronic sense of that word)!

Yes, I know that feeling. But I think pedals are a minor thing in this respect as long as their functions are redundant, and therefore shouldn't be a reason not to enjoy that comfort at home. I'm also not going to ditch my hi-res screen at home just because I can't get a laptop with 2560x1400 :-D


But....

I'm still not sure about this. It's the price.

A Kinesis Advantage with triple pedals is $400 from their webshop which is tolerable. But with shipping, customs and VAT it's closer to $700. Even more if I order from the Swedish reseller. And that is quite a large wad of money.

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Not a fan of simultaneous key pressing!

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erw said:

A Kinesis Advantage with triple pedals is $400 from their webshop which is tolerable. But with shipping, customs and VAT it's closer to $700. Even more if I order from the Swedish reseller. And that is quite a large wad of money.

Wut? Mine was $299 (no pedals) plus $66 shipping to Switzerland, plus ~8% VAT and a small customs handling fee, in total it was little over $400. Is shipping/VAT/customs so much more to/in your country?

You'll probably want a second one soon after the first one – one at work and one at home. ;)

pinkyache said:

Not a fan of simultaneous key pressing!

What are you on about? I'm not a fan of OT/cryptic posts. :P

Last edited by boli (25-Jun-2011 13:38:37)
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boli said:

Wut? Mine was $299 (no pedals) plus $66 shipping to Switzerland, plus ~8% VAT and a small customs handling fee, in total it was little over $400. Is shipping/VAT/customs so much more to/in your country?

Yeah..... Denmark has one of the highest VAT levels in the world: 25%. Plus customs is typically around 10%. Plus a customs handling fee which is around $30. This, of course, is connected to high wages, but I'm just a student :-/

Shipping is "$160.08, however, we have discounted this rate to $86.04 for you". Maybe there is a cheaper, less-express shipping. I should ask them.


boli said:

You'll probably want a second one soon after the first one – one at work and one at home. ;)

Yeah, I'm economically worried about that as well :-P

But something struck me. Shouldn't variation (different keyboard shapes) reduce the... well.. repetitiveness (of RSI)?

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erw said:

Yeah..... Denmark has one of the highest VAT levels in the world: 25%. Plus customs is typically around 10%. Plus a customs handling fee which is around $30. This, of course, is connected to high wages, but I'm just a student :-/

Shipping is "$160.08, however, we have discounted this rate to $86.04 for you". Maybe there is a cheaper, less-express shipping. I should ask them.

Ouch :( that's a lot of money for a student (I got mine after I graduated and had a job).

erw said:

But something struck me. Shouldn't variation (different keyboard shapes) reduce the... well.. repetitiveness (of RSI)?

I guess so, unless your other keyboard(s) are really "bad" (by "bad" I mean "conducive to RSI"). You can definitely get away with buying "just" one (IME: using a different keyboard is easy enough, it's just not something I like to do much).

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I've tried pedals with the Kinesis. I found that trying to use pedals for shift keys (shift, control, AltGr) was hard to get used to. Furthermore, using pedals requires a very particular sitting style - you can't vary your posture quite as much as without pedals.

Some people swear by them, so I guess YMMV.

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boli said:
pinkyache said:

Not a fan of simultaneous key pressing!

What are you on about? I'm not a fan of OT/cryptic posts. :P

Guess it was quite cryptic.  I was thinking that a foot pedal may be a nice alternative to modifier key combos (that I find can be quite awkward and slowing.)  But I'd likely find them just as cumbersome.

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Yeah, maybe I should just try the thumb modifiers before going for the heavy artillery.

Maybe I'll just get the single pedal, just to try it. If it's not good as a modifier, I can always map it to some other cool thing :-)

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Cheers for the insights/updates. The thumb keys (including modifiers) are awesome!

Personally I've never tried putting SHIFT on a thumb button, but it might work well for some people. Having CMD, CTRL and ALT on the thumbs is great though. ^^

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Took the plunge and ordered a Kinesis today :-)

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Awesome! I hope you'll like it as much as I like mine. :) Did you order a pedal as well?

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Yep, but only a single. I hope so too :-)

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  • From: California Coastal Living!
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I'm a Colemak, Kinesis Contoured Advantage, triple foot pedal user :)

I've spoken with Kinesis (a year ago) about custom keycaps...it would be quoted as a one-off. Very expensive. They used to sell blank keys, but not anymore. I'm thinking about sandblasting my keys so there are NO legends at all.

Colemak makes a lot of sense, and even more on the Kinesis.

See my custom Kinesis here:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8110

An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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input nirvana said:

That looks awesome. I'd like to mount/integrate a touch pad between the two key wells but my Magic Trackpad is too big (but maybe I'll figure something out).


I've been very busy for the last two weeks so this is my first day of using the Kinesis properly.

The non-staggered layout seems very easy to adapt to for my left hand. For the right hand, the lower row is difficult and the same with the number keys (I see why you shifted the number row, boli). I often hit the arrow keys instead of "m," and "cv". Adapting to the arrow key locations is hard and in keypad mode I can't put the down arrow on the 5 keypad key without also putting "2" on it when num lock is on.

The keys are very nice and only require a light touch. The piezo clicks are neat but I turned off the other lock key beeps. The rubbery keys at the top suck much more than I expected. I easily activate them twice (especially bad for Alt-F4) and the F8 and F9 keys can get stuck. The acute/grave accent (dead) key feels laggy - unlike my other keyboards I have to release the accent key before typing the letter. Not a biggie but I don't see why it's made that way.

Remapping is ultra intuitive - every keyboard should have this feature (well, every keyboard should start by not having a silly layout, but that is unfortunately a bit subjective).

The curvature of the key wells is comfortable but the overall benefits will probably take more than one day to feel.

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boli said:
erw said:

How is it to have Esc as a soft key?

The soft ESC and F# keys are the weak point of the keyboard hands down. They work, but are a bit finicky. I'd rather have normal keys like all the others tbh. It's still a great keyboard despite this flaw, but I wish they'd change it.

I replaced the rubber keys with cherry brown switches. It's great now. See my mod posted in the thread above.

boli said:
erw said:

Does it have media keys or something I could easily dedicate to it?

Yes. You can set F3, F4 and F5 to be the USB standard media keys (back, play/pause, forward), which you can use to control for example iTunes or VLC - even when the screen is locked!
You can also use F9, F10 and F11 as mute, volume down and volume up respectively, if you enable it.
Check out the Contoured USB keyboard manual (Advantage & Advantage Pro) to see how (search for "multimedia").

I use Mac, I'm on Snow Leopard, and have not been able to get these multimedia features activated. I have several Kinesis Contoured keyboards and several Macs. Are you saying you follow the instructions provided by Kinesis in the manual, and they work?

Last edited by Input Nirvana (21-Jul-2011 06:42:16)

An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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input nirvana said:

I replaced the rubber keys with cherry brown switches. It's great now. See my mod posted in the thread above.

Wow, you got quite an extensive mod going on there, awesome!

input nirvana said:

I use Mac, I'm on Snow Leopard, and have not been able to get these multimedia features activated. I have several Kinesis Contoured keyboards and several Macs. Are you saying you follow the instructions provided by Kinesis in the manual, and they work?

Absolutely! They work great with iTunes (and VLC depending on its setting).

This is my current setting (determined with =s as described in chapter 5 of the manual):

v3.2[T3 T4 T5 T9 T10 T11 T12 :A ]

I got this by enabling the Multimedia Group features, =n as described in appendix E of the manual.

Last edited by boli (24-Jul-2011 11:04:04)
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Thank you!

I was misunderstanding and thinking =n would turn all the features on. Because you assured me it worked, I kept trying and finally realized the features get turned on one at a time.

I see =t working, but I don't understand the function of =n, other than it turn OFF all the multimedia keys.

Super cool.

v3.2[T3 T4 T5 T9 T10 T11 g ]

Last edited by Input Nirvana (24-Jul-2011 23:44:06)

An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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erw said:
input nirvana said:

That looks awesome. I'd like to mount/integrate a touch pad between the two key wells but my Magic Trackpad is too big (but maybe I'll figure something out).

There's a pic of someone that set it there in my mod blog, I've tried it...it seems ok there.

erw said:

Remapping is ultra intuitive - every keyboard should have this feature (well, every keyboard should start by not having a silly layout, but that is unfortunately a bit subjective).

See this project we are working on just that exact thing:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?1945 … e-firmware

erw said:

The curvature of the key wells is comfortable but the overall benefits will probably take more than one day to feel.

Each day you'll benefit more, just like Colemak.

An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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Look at this... A Pimp my keyboard firm!

http://www.access-is.com/custom-keyboar … layout.php

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I sent an email to them inquiring about pricing and getting their products in the U.S. as an individual (not a corporation) and have had no response. Maybe a follow up email is in order.

An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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Actually, I finalize my setup with their software "Softprog" and after that I'll ask for a quotation...
I hope they make retail selling at a fair price.

985845BvoFRaklayoutaccessis.png

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  • From: Aalborg, Denmark
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It's nice to see someone else use the left thumb for space. It's annoying when alternative keyboard designs force just assume you're right handed (well, I am, but I mean space wise). Truly Ergonomic and TypeMatrix seems to be the ones who got it right.

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