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    I got negative feedback regarding Colemak from another user

    • Started by jc0481
    • 6 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 02-Oct-2007
    • Posts: 24

    I posted in a forum that I belong to. Its at youneedabudget.com/ An awesome budgeting program but that's beside the point. On the forum their they have a off-topic forum where you can post anything. So I though I would spread the word on how awesome Colemak is. I will post the negative feedback from this guy below. The reason I post this it because I am not sure how to counter-attack his statements from his third paragraph. I hope Shai can help out or somebody else regarding these statements. These statements won't deter me at all. I have been a proud Colemak user for the past 2 years and still going strong.



    Re: An awesome alternative to Qwerty and Dvorak typing!!!
    by Patzer on Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:20 am

    I think there's a gazillion studies on why Dvorak is superior to Qwerty. I know nothing about Colemak, but for the moment let me assume that Colemak is superior to Dvorak.

    Colemak has no mass market future, for the same reason Dvorak never caught on in the mass market. There are too many Qwerty touch typists, such as myself. There are too many Qwerty keyboards, and people who teach themselves to transition from hunt and peck to two finger to six finger typing can get very fast on Qwerty keyboards. Most importantly, electronic keyboards require very little pressure from the fingers, so that even the weak pinky fingers don't get strained from frequently pressing very common keys such as shift, enter, \, and /.

    The advantage that Dvorak had over Qwerty was apparent in the days of manual typewriters, where the finger muscles actually provided the power for the keys to strike the ribbon and transfer ink to the paper. (Anyone else remember those?) Novice typists had lighter p's and q's than j's and f's, because of the Qwerty layout and the relative strength of the fingers. Electronic typewriters cured most of that problem, and when computers became common enough to largely eliminate typewriters, it went away.

    There was another phenomenon about the conversion from typewriters to word processors (and later, email) that worked against Dvorak: Qwerty keyboards were produced in mass, very cheap. Dvorak keyboards, being nonstandard, cost more. So Dvorak hardware never became widely available. There were various software packages to map the Qwerty keyboard to the Dvorak layout. While this software was helpful for people trained to touch type on Dvorak keyboards, the lack of Dvorak labeling on keys made it useless to people who weren't trained to touch type Dvorak. Add to that the fact that another layer of software translating keystrokes is more overhead on computers that we tend to load up until they crawl anyway, and the Dvorak translation software never became poplular. Even if someone loved Dvorak and put it on his own computer, and had no problems with the overhead of translations, he would still have to deal with employer-owned computers that only spoke Qwerty. Employers have a nasty habit of forbidding employees from making custom changes to their work computers.

    All the reasons Dvorak never became common apply to Colemak as well. It doesn't really matter how much better Colemak is than Dvorak; it won't be able to fight the embedded base any better than Dvorak could. If you really like the Colemak layout, go ahead and use it; but don't expect it to become common or a standard.

    Patzer

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,345

    Well, he's part wrong and part right as I see it. I don't expect Colemak to become common anytime soon, either. But let's pick at some of his statements a bit:

    - He doesn't define how he assumes Colemak's superiority. I haven't seen any serious claims that Colemak beats Dvorak significantly when it comes to speed or ergonomy, only that it's easier to learn for the many QWERTY users around (and that a few other things work easier - like shortcuts and l/s etc.). Minor nitpick. The main error he makes at that point is to believe there are a "gazillion" Dvorak studies. There aren't. And it's not easy to make a decisive and rigid study, as it takes money and scientific skill to do.

    - Each key on a modern board may take relatively little force to depress, but people still develop RSI. And people report being helped by more ergonomic boards and layouts. This rather defeats his theoretical argument that keyboards are lighter today therefore optimizing shouldn't be necessary.

    - QWERTY boards are mass-produced, sure. But more and more of them are possible to remap physically now it seems. My kids will grow up seeing both kinds of layouts. That's nice. If anything akin to the Optimus becomes common at some point, it'll be even easier. Personally, I think that OLED technology will be absolutely huge eventually and we'll end up using them as living-room tapestries with the ability to light up the room in mood colours and show pictures that change over time and who knows what else, but that's going to take a while obviously. At some point though, I think OLED will be cheap and common since the principles of that technology should allow for it (cheap constituents, the possibility of printing OLED on materials with rapid printers etc etc). But I digress.

    - Software remapping is already happening in at least two layers on his QWERTY machine (in Windows, there's the scancode remap in the registry, the VK remap and the final glyph send - maybe I've even forgotten something), so that argument is absolute poppycock. No users that I know of have reported slower computers from changing layouts. Although... I do have an absolutely bloated .klc file that might make an old 386 machine sweat... haven't tried it, but it could happen when remapping is taken to extremes I suppose. Bah.

    - Employer-owned machines, sure. I haven't had any trouble at work though, and I work at a hospital with an IT department that is and has to be strict since people's lives depend on the hospital net. I'm not allowed to install anything on the hospital-net Windows machines, but I don't have to as I can simply run the portable and stealthy PKL on those. On the Linux machines and the University-net Win machines I have no trouble whatsoever. I think he overplays that argument.

    - Indeed, people are ingrained and lazy and don't know their own best and it isn't going to change. So I don't foresee Colemak spreading like wildfire either. But I think it will become a standard because it has a few tricks going on Dvorak. As the various *nix distros will have it, the other systems will eventually come after. It'll take a while, but at some point I think it'll be available on most machines just like Dvorak is. Or the Serbian, Macedonian, various Sápmi and Gaelic layouts just to name a few. Lots of small groups get their own standard layout these days: Contrary to what your debatant seems to think it's very simple to implement on most platforms and there are enough people who care.

    All in all, why bother so much about the "mass market future" of Colemak? As long as it's easy enough for each user to choose it, it's okay. It's not like it's Esperanto and you need someone else to speak it with!

    Last edited by DreymaR (15-Jul-2008 23:41:27)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • From: Houston, Texas
    • Registered: 03-Jan-2007
    • Posts: 358

    DreymaR pretty much covered everything already.  Keep in mind, that defaulting to the negative is always the safe bet because it's not asking for change.  This guy is likely to argue with you till the end of time now that he has staked out such a dogmatic position based on some very flimsy arguments.  I don't see Colemak displacing Qwerty, but I think it is realistic for it to at least become as accepted as Dvorak.  I will be happy if Apple offers it installed on future OS X's and it's recognized properly.  At least he admits he knows nothing about Colemak.  The rest of what he states should be viewed in the light of that statement.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,345

    One more thing: Saying that "the Dvorak software never became popular" is a bit odd. Firstly, no special software is required since the Dvorak is a standard on virtually all computers now - you just choose the Dvorak layout and type away. What software, did you say? Secondly, when this happened the Dvorak layout actually did become a lot more popular than before from what I've heard. Again, it's not been a sweeping wildfire, but the Dvorak has gained in popularity after it became readily available. And from what I gather, getting a physical Dvorak board isn't hard either.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 17-Mar-2008
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    A computer today could probably remap the keyboard through a million maps without breaking a sweat. It is an extremely cheap operation. I don't think one more will make a difference.

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    • Registered: 20-Oct-2006
    • Posts: 111

    I think there is a tendency for people to assume that new things either have to completely replace the entrenched standards or they are 'failures'.

    I use a Mac, so I see this from time to time -- the old 'Macs may be pretty neat, but they're not going to replace Windows any time soon' argument. Sure, that may be the case... if your sample size is the entire computer industry. Macs will never replace Windows machines, if only because Apple only makes computers for consumers and digital professionals. But if you limit your sample size a bit, then things get interesting. Students, for example, buy Macs more often than five percent of the time. Limit your sample even more, and it can become really pronounced -- my parents and stepmother own four Macs and zero PCs between them. I own two Macs and one PC that I only occasionally use for gaming.

    So will Colemak replace QWERTY? No. It can't, just because the 'target market' is the subset of users that will switch keyboard layouts. But with a smaller sample size, that changes. I use Colemak an order of magnitude more than I use QWERTY, and I imagine that pretty much everyone else on this forum is the same.

    But does that make Colemak a failure? Does it have to replace QWERTY to 'win'? Is every QWERTY user still out there some kind of black mark against us? Who except our detractors ever says that the stated goal of Colemak is to become "common"?

    In my life, Colemak is what I use for everything other than gaming and logging in to the computers at work. How does the fact that whatever millions of other people use QWERTY change that fact?

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    • Registered: 27-Apr-2008
    • Posts: 166

    Patzer quote:

    "Colemak has no mass market future..."

    His post then goes on to support this claim. I fully agree with him. The best we can hope for is inclusion in all main operating systems. Once Colemak reaches that stage, I'd call it a resounding success.

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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