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    Alphabetic layout vs QWERTY

    • Started by jag50
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    • Registered: 29-Jul-2007
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    I wonder which one is better.  Alphabetic or QWERTY?
    Which has less finger travel distance?
    Which one is more comfortable?

    Alphabetic layout

      A  B  C  D   E   F  G  H   I   J
      K  L   M   N  O   P  Q  R  S  T
      ;   U  V  W  X   Y  Z

    Last edited by jag50 (19-Oct-2008 21:05:35)
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    Interesting question. One that I have wondered about too. Maybe Speedmorph can run some tests?

    I remember reading somewhere that Qwerty scored higher than the alphabetical layout, but I can't remember where now...

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    • From: Ann Arbor, MI
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    When you think about it, an alphabetic layout is effectively a random layout, so its not surprising that it's so bad.

    But then again, Qwerty was designed to slow down typists who were using alphabetic layouts at the time, so you could argue that Qwerty is worse.

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    simonh said:

    I remember reading somewhere that Qwerty scored higher than the alphabetical layout, but I can't remember where now...

    Perhaps http://millikeys.sourceforge.net/misc/why-qwerty.pdf ? (it's on Colemak's media coverage page)

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    That was the one jrick. Thanks for the link.

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    He unfairly leaves the semicolon on the home position instead of placing T there:

    ABCD EF GHIJ
     KLMN OP QRST
      ;UVW XY Z,./

    It's still not great, but it's a little better.

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    Jag50 what are you up to? Do you think that alphabetic layout is easier to remember or what?

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I wouldn't think so; sounds more like an academic interest.  :)

    However, there are people who seriously think the alphabetic layout is a good alternative to QWERTY!
    http://abckeyboard.co.uk/
    http://www.newstandardkeyboards.com/index.html
    http://www.kidtech.com/

    This tells me that a) some people have got it all ass-forward!, and b) Jag's question is of uncanny interest. Is the QWERTY really not much better than this, at least?

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    I have now amended the keyboard layout to what vVv suggested.

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    • From: Houston, Texas
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    vVv said:

    He unfairly leaves the semicolon on the home position instead of placing T there:

    but that's exactly what these guys do!!!
    http://www.kidtech.com/


    what these guys have done is like you suggest and looking at how they position the keys on the board it makes a bit more sense
    http://abckeyboard.co.uk/

    but they must have been smoking something when they wrote the marketing hype!


    if there are actually companies out there trying to market these boards it makes you wonder why someone has not yet made a go at a Colemak keyboard.

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    I was actually referring to the author of http://millikeys.sourceforge.net/misc/why-qwerty.pdf. He writes that QWERTY is better than an alphabetic layout and then gives as an example this horrible keyboard and says that the worst thing about it is the position of the T without mentioning that it does not have to be there.

    As to what keyboard would be the easiest to learn, that would be something like the PLUM/ReadOnThis keyboard, certainly not an alphabetic keyboard, although an alphabetic keyboard may help kids learn the alphabet.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    vVv: David Piepgrass (the author in question) refers to the ABCkeyboard and not an arbitrary alphabetic layout, as is easily seen on page 14 of his article which I suppose is the passage you're referring to.

    Millikeys said:

    Qwerty is better than an alphabetic layout which is effectively random (the order of the alphabet itself
    is random, and even if it weren't, there's no reason to presume efficiency when you put it on a
    keyboard.) Consider the ABC layout in Fig. 11.[...]

    I see that he is a bit unclear on whether QWERTY is better than any alphabet layout or not, but this has to be seen in context with the first paragraph of that section:

    Millikeys said:

    During my research I saw a claim in a couple of places that Qwerty is no better than a “random”
    layout. This is not a fair claim.

    He is in reality addressing the claim that QWERTY is more or less the worst you can get unless you actually strive for badness, which isn't quite fair.

    So if he's being unfair to the alphabetic layout in general, it would only be in terms of not delving deeper into its possibilities than what is already physically implemented. Maybe he didn't consider it to be within the scope of his article, or maybe it didn't occur to him to expound on that particular topic. I think it interesting enough to use that ABCkeyboard as an example, because it is actually implemented and marketed in that very horrible state!

    I too think that the PLUM would be one of the easier layouts to learn for a keyboard naïve student. But I wouldn't use it myself, and furthermore I don't think that such naïve learners exist in significant numbers in these days when you see QWERTY everywhere and not just on actual keyboards either! I just saw a coffee mug decorated with QWERTY as a purely graphical element. Maybe there are white spots on the map that haven't been overexposed to QWERTY yet, but even those must be dwindling by now.  :)

    Then there's Dexen deVries' fun 'fox' layout and a few others of the same kind...  ;)

    quick,brown[
    f0x.jvmpd;
    thelazy]*g
    Last edited by DreymaR (20-Oct-2008 17:18:50)

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    I like the fox layout too, but somebody should write a program to find ergonomically the best such layout.

    keyboard samurai, I agree, ABCkeyboard's website really is hilarious. The alphabet the skill of the future?? :)

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    According to this website, the alphabet layout has less horizontal(?) Finger Travel Distance and more %home keys.
    But what does 'Overall Effort' mean?

    Surely if the alphabetic layout has more percentage of words on the home keys and less Finger Travel Distance (only the horizontal?), that makes it better than Qwerty?

    http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/SampleText … pedia.html

    Last edited by jag50 (25-Oct-2008 08:29:09)
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    simonh said:

    Interesting question. One that I have wondered about too. Maybe Speedmorph can run some tests?

    I've been gone for a while. Working on other projects.

    I just ran a test on QWERTY and the alphabet layout. QWERTY is slightly worse overall, according to my scoring system.

    -Alphabet has 32% of the work on the left index finger.
    -Alphabet same finger: 6.4%
    -QWERTY same finger: 3.2%
    -Same hand: ~25% for both
    -Alphabet distance: 19.5 million meters
    -QWERTY distance: 23.2 million meters
    -QWERTY adjacent key hits: ~8%
    -Alphabet adjacent key hits: ~7%

    DreymaR said:

    He is in reality addressing the claim that QWERTY is more or less the worst you can get unless you actually strive for badness, which isn't quite fair.

    That's not even true. QWERTY is actually better than a random layout by about 30%.

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    What do you mean by a random layout?
    What would a random layout look like?

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    jag50 said:

    What do you mean by a random layout?
    What would a random layout look like?

    I mean an average layout. Generate every layout possible, and then find the average score. The average score is significantly higher than QWERTY's score. (higher = worse)

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Thanks for those tests, SpeedMorph!

    But how can the Alphabet layout be slightly better than the QWERTY if it doubles the same-finger ratio (which is already high in QWERTY)? I'd think that breaks a layout worse than a 19% higher travel distance?

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    DreymaR said:

    Thanks for those tests, SpeedMorph!

    But how can the Alphabet layout be slightly better than the QWERTY if it doubles the same-finger ratio (which is already high in QWERTY)? I'd think that breaks a layout worse than a 19% higher travel distance?

    Well that's just my scoring system. You might feel differently. By my values, QWERTY is worse. But maybe not by yours. That's why I told you all the stats. As it is, the cost for same finger is about the same as the cost for hitting one of the harder keyboard positions.

    It might help to make each stat cost exponentially more as it occurs more often, but I tried that and it doesn't work very well in practice.

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    In the www.newstandardkeyboards.com keyboard there is A, E, I at the poor left pinky! Ok, the right side seems quite good, but anyway, ergonomicaly it is not better than QWERTY at all.

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    Manabu said:

    In the www.newstandardkeyboards.com keyboard there is A, E, I at the poor left pinky! Ok, the right side seems quite good, but anyway, ergonomicaly it is not better than QWERTY at all.

    I think that if I used that keyboard, my pinky would run away crying.

    There are some other annoying parts, but the pinky overload is the worst. The pinky is doing about 30% of the work.

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    According to my program, Alphabetic is substantially worse than than QWERTY.  Alphabetic's main downfall is its phenomenally poor hand balance.  For instance, on my corpus, the left index finger does roughly 32% of all typing, while the right index finger does 8%.

    As far as QWERTY slowing typists who were using Alphabetic, I imagine it would do that for hunt-and-peckers; an alphabetically ordered arrangement is easier to pick letters out of than QWERTY's comparatively random arrangement.

    Oh, and in my version of Alphabetic, I stuck all the punctuation at the end:

    abcde fghij
    klmno pqrst
    uvwxy z,.;/
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    Phynnboi said:

    According to my program, Alphabetic is substantially worse than than QWERTY.  Alphabetic's main downfall is its phenomenally poor hand balance.  For instance, on my corpus, the left index finger does roughly 32% of all typing, while the right index finger does 8%.

    What are your scoring values?

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    Here are some evaluations of interest:

    Alphabetic: 0.91
    QWERTY: 0.68
    Dvorak: 0.35
    Colemak: 0.26
    My Best: 0.13

    The score is a composite based on key preference, finger preference, finger balance, two-row jumps (jumps over the home row), and same-finger.  Lower scores are better.  Sometime I'll get around to writing about what all this means.  (Yeah, same-finger is fairly obvious, although in my implementation it persists across hand swaps, so, e.g., "RJF" on QWERTY would count as same-finger.)

    Off the subject, but according to my scoring function, it's possible to beat Dvorak just by swapping J-N and K-O on QWERTY:

    qwert yuikp
    asdfg hnol;
    zxcvb jm,./

    That scores 0.35 (more precisely, 0.348 to Dvorak's 0.354).  I'm not sure how many people would agree that's superior to Dvorak.  I should mention that my scoring function is NOT anti-Dvorak.  In fact, if I optimize for two-row jumps and ignore everything else, I get layouts like this:

    cvbjk ;zqx/
    auoie ntsrd
    fmpwg y,h.l

    That home row looks awfully familiar, doesn't it?  I was really surprised the first time I saw that.  Most people attribute Dvorak's home row to maximizing hand swapping and home row usage, so I was quite surprised to see it rediscovered totally outside the context of either of those things!

    Amusingly, that layout still scores 0.350--better than Dvorak itself.  We can manually rearrange the columns into a more sensible arrangement and hit 0.27:

    jcbkv /z;qx
    iaoeu dtnsr
    wfpgm l,yh.

    ANYWAY....

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