Colemak vs Dvorak with some slight changes vs Pure Colemak - General

jcd93
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12-Dec-2008 00:15:09#1 Colemak vs Dvorak with some slight changes vs Pure Colemak

Ok so I spent the past couple weeks dabbling in dvorak until i just stumble upon Colemak now.
(I promise not to let those couple weeks bias my decision).
So I was looking at the pros and cons of each and was wondering how much dvorak would still be behind (if at all)
if i were to switch caps lock and backspace.
My other concerns include having just begun to learn some programming how much dvorak would be hurting (and what languages favor which layout).
Finally, because some qwerty positions were maintained so that Colemak could be learned more easily, I was wondering if there is a pure version of Colemak available, in which all the calculations are kept pure and easy of learning is disregarded (I am rather young and never perfected qwerty typing). If such a version exists I will almost definitely choose that one instead.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

ps oh and by the way also please ignore any advantages for hotkeys or gaming as i can just write another mod for that

Last edited by jcd93 (12-Dec-2008 00:34:20)

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tomlu
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12-Dec-2008 00:44:15#2 Re: Colemak vs Dvorak with some slight changes vs Pure Colemak

Some people like Colemak better, others prefer the flow of Dvorak. I think it very much comes down to personal preference. Most people here are going to prefer Colemak. I didn't like Dvorak because of the placement of L and S, and to a lesser extent F.

For programming you want a layout that favours English, which both Dvorak and Colemak do. The symbols that are a really important factor for programming are in the same place for Colemak, Dvorak and Qwerty so for those it's a wash (although some people move those, too).

To answer your final question, my feeling is that there is a host of layouts that are all about equally good. Shai has, in a sense, picked the one of these that he felt was easiest to learn. I don't think there are many "compromises" as such to Colemak. Just pick one and stick with it, and you'll be fine.

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Korivak
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12-Dec-2008 07:28:52#3 Re: Colemak vs Dvorak with some slight changes vs Pure Colemak

There's no 'pure' version of Colemak, but the official layout is pretty close to mathematically perfect as is. A lot of users have looked at the layout and found little changes to try, but none of them are particularly better than the original. Things like swapping 'R' and 'S' get recommended pretty commonly, but that actually decreases measures like easy rolls and increase problems such as same finger usage.

The only keys that you can change without significant costs are the really minor keys that don't get much usage in the first place. For example, I swapped 'J' and 'B' on my board so that 'J' and 'K' are next to each other for Google Reader keyboard shortcuts, but 'J' and 'B' are two of the least common letters in the English language, so the net change in actually typing is extremely minor. Some people also move the bottom row around a bit, but that just changes other uncommon keys like 'Z', 'X' and 'V'. Perhaps better, perhaps not, but very minor in the grand scheme.

The QWERTY similarities are a huge benefit, and are pretty much a non-issue in turns of optimization costs. It's actually pretty neat that it all works out so nicely, but it has more to do with the fact that the QWERTY corners are full of punctuation and uncommon letters already than it does with compromises in the design of Colemak.

But feel free to play around with the layout if you want -- I have four minor changes in my Colemak-B layout, personally -- just be aware that there's not a lot of room for improvement since the layout is already very solid. Three of my four changes are in the punctuation sections of the keyboard, actually, since the letters are just about perfect as is.

Last edited by Korivak (12-Dec-2008 07:31:03)

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SpeedMorph
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12-Dec-2008 19:44:02#4 Re: Colemak vs Dvorak with some slight changes vs Pure Colemak

If you want a keyboard that's good for programming and you don't care about how easy it is to learn, Dvorak or Colemak may not be the best option. You should look at Arensito (http://www.pvv.org/~hakonhal/keyboard/). I don't think that the keyboard is as good overall (it puts WAY too much stress on the right right finger), but it has a nice programming layout. You could make something like that for Dvorak or Colemak.

Dvorak moves [{]} farther away, which makes programming harder. I think the best thing for programming would be a modified version of Colemak. Or you could design an entirely new layout. (We've gotten a few of these, including mine.)

My typing speed record: http://hi-games.net/typing-test/watch?u=493

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rtra
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02-Jan-2009 17:43:51#5 Re: Colemak vs Dvorak with some slight changes vs Pure Colemak

SpeedMorph said:

If you want a keyboard that's good for programming a

Or just lean a powerful editor like emacs. See some Programming Nifty tricks

Last edited by rtra (02-Jan-2009 17:46:06)

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tomlu
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02-Jan-2009 19:17:15#6 Re: Colemak vs Dvorak with some slight changes vs Pure Colemak

Or just lean a powerful editor like emacs.

In my experience which editor you pick is mostly orthogonal to choice of layout. That is, by all means do pick a good editor (and perhaps consider Vim as a potentially more ergonomic alternative to Emacs), but do pick a good layout and a good keyboard as well.

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rtra
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02-Jan-2009 20:33:44#7 Re: Colemak vs Dvorak with some slight changes vs Pure Colemak

tomlu said:

In my experience which editor you pick is mostly orthogonal to choice of layout.

My colemak mod will depend heavily on emac's electric-pair.

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migo
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03-Jan-2009 07:55:25#8 Re: Colemak vs Dvorak with some slight changes vs Pure Colemak

Using capslock as backspace would help Dvorak a lot. L and S was a big problem, but not having to do backspace in the same direction would alleviate it. I found that was an annoyance in Dvorak but overall still less painful than QWERTY. Colemak I found even more painful than QWERTY. So I'd vote for any layout with caps rematched to backspace would be an improvement.

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