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    My experience: switch s and r

    • Started by TimM
    • 9 Replies:
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    • Registered: 23-Dec-2008
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    I have tried Colemak and unfortunately I find it too much of a change from qwerty.  Others may be able to make the switch, but not I.

    I do have one suggestion, though.  I found the relocation of the s key particularly problematic, as that is used in many settings, in particular in saving files.  There seems to be little disadvantage to having s stay on the same key in qwerty and colemak, and putting the Colemak r key at the d slot on the keyboard.  This one simple change would have made my chances of being able to make the switch much, much better.

    I would suggest that you consider this change and at least offer it as an option for new users.

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    • Registered: 17-Mar-2008
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    It would indeed make the layout easier to learn but Shai felt the advantages of moving it were sufficient to mandate a move. There are explanations on the forum why the S had to move. Snipped from some thread:

    "That [swapping s and r back] would make it easier to learn, but it would increase same finger with FR, CR, and to a lesser extent, SW. To fix that, F and/or C would have to move, making it harder to learn and making ctrl-C harder."

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    The earlier incarnations of pre-Colemak design (known as "Asetion") all had the S in its' old place. But the disadvantages were too great - even if you don't notice them straight away. Mostly, it has to do with digraphs.

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    • Registered: 17-Dec-2008
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    Swapping R and S on Colemak doesn't make THAT much difference.  Here are the numbers for my corpus:

    TOTAL DIGRAPH OCCURRENCES: 477191

    STANDARD COLEMAK
    sf: 393
    fs: 220
    sc: 703
    cs: 108
    wr: 149
    rw: 394
    rx: 4
    xr: 8
    total: 1979 (~0.4%)

    COLEMAK WITH S AND R SWITCHED:
    rf: 302
    fr: 687
    rc: 443
    cr: 416
    sw: 888
    ws: 181
    sx: 1
    xs: 8
    total: 2926 (~0.6%)

    So, out of 477191 digraph occurrences, you'd end up typing 947 (~0.2%) more of them as same-finger; that's roughly 2 out of every 1000 characters--not a huge deal.  Moving S from its QWERTY position was clearly a refinement, not a major improvement.

    The bigger disadvantage of swapping the two letters is that you now have a non-standard layout, so you're responsible for supporting yourself (e.g., you can't just jump on the official Colemak site and download install files for whatever new computer you sit down at.)

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    • Registered: 31-Dec-2008
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    I actually registered to comment on this.

    I learned Dvorak several years ago, and I didn't have any troubles learning it because it war very different. With Colemak the fact that the S is one key off from where it usually is really confusing. I was hoping that there would be a very good reason for it, given that a number of keys were left in place to make the transition easier. My #1 mistake is typing R when I want to type S (but not vice versa). My #2 mistake is hitting with the wrong hand (v instead of k and vice versa). #2 is just a learning issue. #1 is a layout issue. I think the advantage of Colemak over Dvorak in using the pinkies less is well worth it, but it really does stick out.

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    • Registered: 17-Mar-2008
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    I was hoping that there would be a very good reason for it

    As has been stated, it would increase same-finger for fr, cr and sw. Phynnboi's measurements show that switching S and R would increase same-finger ratio by 50%. While that is still a small minority of all typed characters, for those of us who don't much like same-finger digraphs a 50% increase is a big enough deal to swap the two. If it's any consolation, I promise that with time you will get used to it.

    On the flipside, you may notice that quite a few people are asking for a version of Colemak without the optimisation constraint of being similar to qwerty. They want a more hardcore layout that has cast of all shackles, and are of the belief that Colemak has made compromises. My feeling is that Colemak isn't really deoptimised. Rather, Shai in a sense picked the layout among many layouts of similar strength that is the most similar to qwerty. Leaving S and R in their qwerty positions would in fact be a compromise that would displease the hardcore crowd.

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    • Registered: 31-Dec-2008
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    I think the problem with S and R is that the S is so close. If it were on a different row or on the other hand it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

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    • Registered: 17-Dec-2008
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    I've noticed that same-finger digraphs aren't nearly so bad when they end on the home row (as in "FS" on Colemak)--in fact, I hardly notice those.  It's the ones that end on the top or bottom rows (as in "SF" on Colemak) that throw me off, for whatever reason.  From that perspective, "bad" same-finger digraphs increase by only ~10%.  Still not great, but not a killer.  It's still worth soldiering on with the official layout, I think, for the added support.  Alternatively, you could try the "ASSET" layout, which is competitive with Colemak and keeps "S" in its Qwerty position.

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    • Registered: 31-Dec-2008
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    Yeah. The left hand probably has something right. It's the right hand I'm thinking that has the real layout problems since that's where my pain is going through the roof.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    It's not so much whether they end on the home row I think? FS on Colemak has that nice downward slide from the upper to the home row, which isn't bad. Take something like CS or KN, and I'd recommend alternative fingering because they're really awkward. Luckily, CS is very rare (I think) and KN is one of the most easily done alternative fingerings.

    Even the maker of ASSET thinks that Colemak is a better layout, by the way.  ;)

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