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    Baffling Metrics and Pinkie Usage

    • Started by trifthen
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    • From: Chicago Area
    • Registered: 04-Nov-2009
    • Posts: 21

    Now that I've fully switched, I wonder a few points. The pinkie is a piece of crap, in general. Why are both O and A set on that finger? Those are the third and fourth most common letters in English! That's worse than QWERTY! Sure, it's alternating pinkies, but the index fingers, aside from T, are assigned to less frequent letters.

    It's great that the hand balance is better, but the index fingers should at least have one freaking vowel, which aside from the afore-mentioned T, take up the top 5 most common letters. In addition, the vowels that are on stronger fingers, only A, the third most common letter in English is on the left side, and that's a freaking pinkie! What? Do the measurements really say this is an overall improvement? Personally, I believe the configuration should assign a much higher penalty on the pinkie. Pinkie travel is worse of course, but any usage should incur some kind of negative ranking compared to other fingers.

    When I get some time, I may run a few tests to bear this out, because it just seems really sketchy. Anyone else have comments about this?

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    • Registered: 27-Apr-2008
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    I think that if the pinkie had to move away from the home row, it would be a problem (as with Dvorak 'l'). As they only have to press down, I don't consider it problematic at all. The pinkies are strong enough to do their fair share of home row typing.

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    I only have problems with the pinky when it's expected to do feats such as reach for the enter key or backspace.

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    • Registered: 17-Mar-2008
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    the index fingers should at least have one freaking vowel

    If the index finger had a freaking vowel then you would see same-finger go up because it has to cover six keys. Similar reasoning will place vowels on the pinkies if you accept that you want to put the most uncommon letters in the pinky non-home row positions.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    The pinkies are paradoxical really. They're slow when it comes to digraphs and stretches, and yet they do a lot of odd jobs on the keyboard! As the previous posters say, they're quite okay for just pressing keys with, and only have problems with awkward stretches.

    It does make sense that the outermost fingers on each hand aren't really 'pieces of crap', even if they're on the outward side of the hand.

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    • From: Chicago Area
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    You know, it's kinda funny. Right after asking this question, I noticed that I've been constantly mistyping "io" as "oi" because it rolls better due to the index fingers being anchored on home row. Thinking on that, I'd love to see how that variant fares in a usability test. Does the fact that "i" is a more common vowel and would incur more pinkie usage, overcome the benefit to better outward-to-inward hand rolls... Hmm...

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    I remember I used to make a lot of mistakes with i and o. Practising typing words like these helped me:

    lotion station sirloin potion groin etc.

    After a while it didn't seem to be a problem, at least for me.

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    • From: Chicago Area
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    Actually, I just ran carpalx on a modified colemak keyboard with O and I switched. Pinkie frequency actually decreased, and you gain the benefit of the faster pinkie->ring-finger roll. I might just start using that.

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    simonh said:

    I remember I used to make a lot of mistakes with i and o.

    It's not really a mistake, though. Hand structure basically dictates outside to inside hand rolls are faster than inside to outside. So your hands more naturally type oi than io, which is why you'll often "mistype" that combo. Considering IO happens about six times more often than OI, and that O occurs more often than I in the dictionary, I'm now of the opinion that O and I should be swapped on the Colemak keyboard.

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    • From: London
    • Registered: 29-Sep-2009
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    Another small advantage of having O on the ring finger is that that matches Qwerty.
    But a disadvantage is it will be slower to do OY and YO as they will use the same finger. (YI is pretty rare by comparison I expect.)
    Having said that, one word I have trouble with in Colemak is "you", I get all kinds of different orders when I'm trying to type that fast on a light keyboard. Having Y and O on the same finger would fix that, albeit at the expense of slowing me down.

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    • From: Houston, Texas
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    on the other hand, typing "you" is very reliable for me.  Have no trouble doing a out-in roll to form the word without thinking.

    Every time people start picking Colemak apart like this, I just get a better appreciation for what Shai did in balancing all the variables. 

    Also to say "hand structure basically dictates outside to inside hand rolls are faster" without scientific literature citations is not convincing.  A roll for like "io" in "tion" is just as fast for me as "in" in "ting" .  and both common sequences take about the same time for me.

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    keyboard samurai said:

    Also to say "hand structure basically dictates outside to inside hand rolls are faster" without scientific literature citations is not convincing.

    Well, that's partially why having data from user studies would be useful. And I stand by my statement that OUT->IN rolls are faster. When you drum your fingers on the table, which ones hit the table first? You think that's a coincidence? Try doing an IN-OUT on a table or something, and see if you can consistently get index->middle->ring->pinkie without having to actually slow way down or concentrate on what you're doing.

    And again, I'm not picking it apart. This is just one example of how a study would help, because we're still just guessing on what's most important. On of potentially dozens of metrics. I just grabbed the IO vs. OI example because I noticed it and wondered about other things. Nothing wrong with speculating.

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    keyboard samurai said:

    on the other hand, typing "you" is very reliable for me.  Have no trouble doing a out-in roll to form the word without thinking.

    Every time people start picking Colemak apart like this, I just get a better appreciation for what Shai did in balancing all the variables.

    I hope nobody thinks I'm picking Colemak apart, I'm very happy I made the change.
    And to stress what I said earlier I have the problem with "you" mainly on light keyboards, such as my Realforce 87U which has lower-force switches for the weaker fingers like the pinkie and ring fingers.
    Colmaks_Mastered.jpg

    Last edited by rajagra (06-Nov-2009 12:24:02)
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    I believe that some combinations with the pinkie are actually the highest quality you can get on the keyboard.  If you hit two keys in an inward roll, preceded or followed by a pinky on the opposite hand, I think that's good stuff.  There's nothing bad about the pinky starting from the top row either, as long as it isn't preceded by the same pinky doing something else too recently.  I pinky-travel is often over-emphasized.  You don't want to type QAQA or QZQZ but other than that I think we should think about moving the enter key if we are so worried about the weakness of the pinkies.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    I really wish that the standard keyboard (not some prohibitively expensive variant) had a split Enter/Space bar instead of just the long Space bar.

    Therefore, these days I hit CapsLock+Space for Enter, which actually feels easier to me than just the right-hand Enter. At first glance that makes no sense whatsoever since you're still using a pinky in addition to another key, but I feel it works since I don't have to leave my home position that way.

    Last edited by DreymaR (06-Nov-2009 13:11:12)

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    If we had a split spacebar it would probably be better to make one of them the letter "e."  Your Caps+Space is interesting.

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    The single best thing you can do for your pinkies is have auto-capitalization on your OS like it does on my Droid.  Saves on shift usage a TON.

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    I'm guessing it'd annoy me a ton though. Always seems to capitalize what I wouldn't and vice versa - especially when I'm writing scientific stuff.

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    klalkity said:

    Your Caps+Space is interesting.

    What's more - it's really nice (I think)!  :)

    The 'extend' positions I use the most besides the Space -> Enter are:
    - UNEI arrows, LY Home/End, JH PageUp/PageDown
    - AST Alt/Shift/Ctrl (for use with the other extend keys, such as Ctrl-Shift-Arrows for selecting words)
    - O; Backspace/Delete
    - WR scroll wheel up/down
    - FP Browser back/forward
    - Q Esc (very nice)
    - ZXCV GUI Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste
    - 1 through = F# keys (especially A+4 for closing programs)
    - F1-F12 multimedia keys (play/prev/next/stop, mute/vol-/vol+/player, Browser(Home)/Mail/Explore/Calc)

    Heh, that's many of the keys accounted for there. Then there's GDBØKM for a click-mouse that's not good but helps moving the cursor out of harm's way when necessary. The ' key for Menu is quite neat too.

    Using these also inspires me to use other shortcuts like Tab, Ctrl-W etc more extensively. They also facilitate left-hand-only functionality for some situations which is very handy because the right hand is busy mousing (but shouldn't have to mouse over to a tiny button to close a window for instance).

    Last edited by DreymaR (13-Nov-2009 10:03:32)

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