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Colemak extra-wide layout. Alternate home position.

  • Started by cevgar
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Huh? Sorry, I didn't understand why you want to do all that. To me, it looks as if you give the B a very bad position, don't get any wrist angle benefits and gain - what, exactly? Sorry if I'm being dense... :D

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Another way of thinking about this is B is used about 1.5% of all the letters in English language. If you type with 98% Accuracy (which is quite good), you'd have to reach for Backspace for about 2% of the keys you press. Also, most of the times, you'd have to press Backspace more than once. Usually you don't catch the error immediately after you make it, so you have to delete several letters.
Therefore I'd keep backspace on a more comfortable place than B.

Last edited by pafkata90 (22-Nov-2011 01:03:18)
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*Blinks* You know... you guys are both completely right. Why did I want to do this? What was the benefit supposed to be? I was looking at Workman, and thinking about reducing load with more usable keys and then... I decided the solution was giving the pinkies MORE work?! I must have had something further in mind, but looking at it now... who knows. While arguably it is more efficient to plow through with what you were writing and fix everything later with the spell checker (spellchecker can fix typos a lot faster than I can) that doesn't change the fact that if things like the ; placement was an issue, it wouldn't be Colemak to begin with.

And a NARROW mod?! Must have been something funny in the water. Guess I just got caught up with a concept and forgot what it was for. Sorry guys, seems I've presented you all with a wonderful mud pie.

Last edited by cevgar (22-Nov-2011 01:56:34)
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Unfortunately, double posting was pretty much required. Even worse, since it is new info, I don't feel terribly guilty about it either. Shocking, eh?

Having switched out the Goldtouch, I am re-evaluating some layouts. This came to me when trying to deal with the stagger issue of the MK-Type (or whatever I was calling it), which might be seeing an similar 'spacebar inclusive' update.


YES! IT IS A NEW LAYOUT!

Hopefully it is a bit better than my last disaster, eh? Anyways, the primary tenant of what I'm tentatively calling the 'ThumbsPlus' mods (though PinkieMinus might be more appropriate) is (are?) Space on the R.Alt, and a single shift on the space bar. To do this, the right home position has to be pushed right against the edge of the keyboard. A two key shift, as opposed to the Wide-Mod's one key shift.

The concept came to me through actual useage this time. Yes, I was actually using one of my own layouts for day to day work, shocking as that may be. Turns out the 'two keys right and one key up' shift of the MK-Type put the resting position of the R.Thumb rather uncomfortably between the Spacebar, R.Alt and Comma. Anywhere I placed it caused some form of wrist extension, awkward fingering or just plain didn't work at normal speeds. Since narrowing wasn't an option, I widened. The unified Shift really opened things up. And there you have it. ... well, here you have it. There I had it. Semantics.

And now, more Eye Wrecking Text Art. TM. Undecided keys left blank. (in case any of you are wondering, I use this awful text art not because I hate you, but because it has fairly accurate representation of key stagger and placement. ...And I hate finding a place to host images.)

Colemak
___________________________________________________________
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | = | BSp |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g | j | l | u | y | ; | [ | ] | \ |
| BkSp | A | R | S | T | d | h | N | E | I | O | ' | Entr |
| Shift  | z | x | c | v | b | k | m | , | . | / | Shift  |
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Space              | Alt | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------


Colemak using ThumbsPlus1 Mod
___________________________________________________________
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 |   |   |   |   |   |   | BSp |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g |   |   | j | l | u | y | ; | ' |
| BkSp | A | R | S | T | d |   |   | h | N | E | I | O    |
| AltGr  | z | x | c | v | b |   |   | k | m | , | .      |
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Shift              | Spa | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------

Colemak using ThumbsPlus1 Angle ANSI variant
___________________________________________________________
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 |   |   |   |   |   |   | BSp |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g |   |   | j | l | u | y | ; | ' |
| BkSp | A | R | S | T | d |   |   | h | N | E | I | O    |
|      z | x | c | v | b |   |   |   | k | m | , | .      |
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Shift              | Spa | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------

Colemak using ThumbsPlus2 Mod
___________________________________________________________
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | BSp |
|   q | w | f | p | g |   |   |   | j | l | u | y | ; | ' |
|    A | R | S | T | d |   |   |   | h | N | E | I | O    |
|      z | x | c | v | b |   |   |   | k | m | , | .      |
| Ctr | Wn |     | Shift              | Spa | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------

You notice that a good many keys are blank. Remembering the amount of discussion there was about the numberbar, symbols and brackets, I'm leaving these to the reader's imagination. There are simply too many wrong positions for me to discover them all myself.

If I were to make a suggestion though, I would probably recommend something where the Keyboard's Qwerty marking are still helpful. T for Tab, B for Backspace, N for eNter. G for altGrb. Y and U for brackets (same line), H and J for slashes (Just because). M for... well, whatever you want. Maybe another Backspace. Hmm, no. Second Backspace should probably be on the L.Alt. Still, that is the nice thing about this mod. With only one Shift, it actually gives you an extra key to play around with. Also, I am perfectly inclined to leave the number row alone. Mostly because I don't use it much.


The Cons, since someone is going to point them out anyway, are: ... um, well, pretty much most of the pinkie stretches are now inward reaches (or upward reaches if you move stuff to the numberbar). If you believe the TypeMatrix folks though, that is a good thing. I'm not sure if I agree, but if it works in my favor I can at least give it lip service, right?

Last edited by cevgar (15-Dec-2011 14:54:58)
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My concern about this is that it actually puts a hell of a lot of keys to the index fingers, which already have a lot. It feels like you're taking too much off the pinkies. If I could give you an advice – consider having a modifier key (like altgr) on the place of LAlt, so by holding it and pressing some comfortable keys, you have some useful ones, like Backspace, Delete, maybe Ctrl+Backspace, arrows, I don't know, whatever you use often. I could see how someone might find this useful, maybe on some small laptop keyboards. It's just not my cup of tea :)

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The left side of the 'ThumbsPlus1' looks like an interesting way of fixing the angle problem (if a bit unaesthetic, hehe). I wouldn't make it wider than one key in the middle myself though, as I partially agree with pafkata. So the old Wide mods, but with the Z on the LShift and the Shift on the Space key etc could be a possibility. However, it wouldn't be great for people who need the AltGr a lot I suppose.

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For the record, the widening of the ThumbsPlus layouts was actually a secondary... benefit. The intention was to push one of the thumbs off the space bar, in effect creating a second thumb button ('Plus1' Thumb button). After playing around with Maltron like layouts, it occurred to me that Shift doesn't have a high enough frequency by itself to monopolize the L.Thumb, so the 'Plus2' attempts to put the L.Alt in easier reach. It sort of succeeds at that. Trade-offs are just a bit worse than we might like.


@pafkata90
Yes, unfortunately the index fingers do get a lot of extra keys. On the other hand, I'm not sure how frequently most of them are used. Still, it is somewhat necessary to move the right hand over to make the R.Alt into a viable space key. Working with layers could be a fix to even things out, but most of what I'm trying to do is layout independent key shuffling. Not actually editing the layout. Also, Colemak already has very heavy layers usage. (Ironically enough, the wide mod started off as a layout as I didn't want to mess with 'unmovable' function keys.)
       
@DreymaR
I thought you'd like that left hand. As I hinted at earlier though, I don't feel that the Wide mod moves the right thumb over far enough for R.Alt to become a comfortable location for the Space key. It might be possible to adapt to it over time though. (Also, this is largely dependent on the keyboard. R.Alt placement isn't standardized. On a model M it is impossible to move the right hand over far enough for these layouts to be comfortable. On a laptop keyboard, the wide mod by itself practically puts the thumb on top of the R.Alt.)
       
While the R.Alt could be made into a ShiftKey... for me it just doesn't work out. Try it for yourself and see. The thumb anchors the hand much more than the pinkie, which is why I thought it important that both thumbs have access to it.
       
The right thumb could be angled so it is in better alignment by placing the right home position on Qwerty kop[, but that... has its own problems. To put it mildly.

       
For the heck of it, here is the 1 key Wide Mod version. Since it still uses the the Space and Shift position it is a ThumbsPlus. Due to my lack of foresight it gets the unfortunate designation ThumbsPlus0. Or it would, if I stuck to the same naming scheme. Having learned my lesson, it gets the even worse designation ThumbsPlus0.5. I might demote it to 0.1 if it turns out to be as uncomfortable as I suspect it to be.


ThumbsPlus0.5
This time blank keys are either undecided, or unchanged. These are less fully formed layouts, and more possible examples.

Colemak
___________________________________________________________
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | = | BSp |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g | j | l | u | y | ; | [ | ] | \ |
| BkSp | A | R | S | T | d | h | N | E | I | O | ' | Entr |
| Shift  | z | x | c | v | b | k | m | , | . | / | Shift  |
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Space              | Alt | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------

ThumbsPlus0.5 'Traditional'
___________________________________________________________
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | BSp |
|     |   |   |   |   |   |   | j | l | u | y | ; | [ | ] |
|      |   |   |   |   |   |   | h | N | E | I | O | '    |
| Enter  | z | x | c | v | b |   | k | m | , | . | /      |
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Shift              | Spa | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------    

ThumbsPlus0.5 'Contemporary'
___________________________________________________________
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | BSp |
|     |   |   |   |   |   |   | j | l | u | y | ; | ' | \ |
|      |   |   |   |   |   |   | h | N | E | I | O | Entr |
|      z | x | c | v | b |   | / | k | m | , | . | AltGr  |
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Shift              | Spa | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------        
        
        
ThumbsPlus0.5 'Raised Ranch'
___________________________________________________________
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | BSp |
|     |   |   |   |   |   |   | j | l | u | y | ; |AlG|Ent|
|      |   |   |   |   |   |   | h | N | E | I | O | '    |
|      z | x | c | v | b |   |   | k | m | , | . | /      |
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Shift              | Spa | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------

Edit: You know, the Footswitch really was a much better idea.
Second Edit: ...though... I suppose if a person was desperate enough to get rid of the Shift keys, they could put space back on the space bar, then shift on something unused (I'm looking at you R.Ctrl). Set that up as a footswitch and voilà; a complete mess. Least it should prevent anyone from using your computer.

Last edited by cevgar (17-Dec-2011 17:37:55)
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As you know, I've been using a Wide mod since page 1 of this topic (Feb 2010). :) Thus, I feel I have a lot of experience with it now and I must say I think a one key shift feels like the right amount for me at least. I recently moved a pair of more frequently used letters than before into the middle trench (the 'å' and 'æ') and immediately felt that a 2-key stretch really is the maximum I'd want for my index fingers! Or any finger for that matter. That might leave an opening for a 2-key widening you'd think but it's the stretch to the former J key position from a wider mod that kills my right index finger because that's 2.25 keys - so I keep using the left index on that one lest it be too much. In my opinion. I guess you could get away with putting the least-used key in that position (the backslash or something).

I see your point about the thumb and the RAlt key. Furthermore, this depends a lot on your keyboard model: Some keyboards, particularly older models, have a long spacebar that puts the RAlt key so far to the right that I can hardly see how they could get away with it WITHOUT using a Wide mod! Could be a problem.

Last edited by DreymaR (17-Dec-2011 20:22:33)

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Was just reading through this thread, and wondered why no mention of a possible two-key shift to the right, but keeping the home row in the middle. For those of us with ISO keyboards, this would actually give nice and easy access to the Return key at last. The big downside would be the need to relocate "." though. Something like...

Q W F P G [ ] J L U Y ;
A R S T D ' # H N E I O
Z X C V B . / K M ,

Would the weird location of ' and . be offset by easier access to Return, AltGr, RWin and Backspace?

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Good point. I was sure Cevgar had that too covered, but it seems he jumped straight on to row-shifted variants.

I think it may be a "bridge too far" for my tastes. The brackets look very nice there in the middle, and the extra hand spacing seems nice, but there's a price to pay.
• Misplacing both the apostrophe and period seems dire. My own attempts with alternative apostrophe placements fell flat; period should be even worse.
• It also breaks the period and comma apart; they're used pairwise to map <> in the US and my layout for instance.
• Backspace won't be good even with this shift. I'd rather use the Extend way to backspace then.
• RWin is fairly irrelevant to me, as I very rarely use it (unless I map it to a Compose key).
• I find the Return key easy to use with a single-wide mod on an ISO board. That said, I usually use Caps+Space instead so I guess the point is valid.
• The stretches to the middle with a single-wide mod are already enough I feel. It's nice to reach some of them with both hands for variation.

I'd like to move the apostrophe next to H to keep it on the same hand/row. I'd likewise move the period key next to K? The key you call '#' is the backslash key I think? I'd be tempted to put the two slashes up against each other then, on the bottom row. Then the period could move to the home row? It's a bit tricky.

The most important consideration for the apostrophe would be the 's, 't and similar bigrams ("that's it's aren't would've..."). For these, it would be bad to have the apostrophe next to D because of stretches and same-finger.

The slash-question key is so common that it shouldn't be too hard to reach. The backslash is much less frequent for most.

Slashes together:

  +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
  |  Q  |  W  |  F  |  P  |  G  |  [  |  ]  |  J  |  L  |  U  |  Y  |  ;  |
  +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |  A  |  R  |  S  |  T  |  D  |  .  |  '  |  H  |  N  |  E  |  I  |  O  |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  _  |  \  |  /  |  K  |  M  |  ,  |  RShift  |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Using the Angle mod as above, it'd also be possible to put the period next to B in the old B position! That's a decent position. But I use the VK_102 key for my Ø letter which is needed now and then so it couldn't go too far off as far as I'm concerned.

Period next to B with the Angle mod:

  +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
  |  Q  |  W  |  F  |  P  |  G  |  [  |  ]  |  J  |  L  |  U  |  Y  |  ;  |
  +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |  A  |  R  |  S  |  T  |  D  |  _  |  '  |  H  |  N  |  E  |  I  |  O  |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  .  |  \  |  /  |  K  |  M  |  ,  |  RShift  |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Because of problems with period and apostrophe, I feel that this would be reaching too far. But it's a fascinating thought!

Last edited by DreymaR (10-Aug-2014 18:34:05)

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I never use RWin either - I was thinking of it more as key being bought into play for remapping/layers possibilities, as it would become an accessible extra right thumb key.

An alternative might also be to switch apostrophe with semicolon so that , and ' are both still on the right. Maybe also . could be in your much-beloved VK_102 position, although it would prevent your angle mod. But it would give a certain symmetry to < and >. On my keyboard VK_102 is backslash which is why I've always found it annoying.

I kind of agree though. There would really need to be an extra key in the bottom-right corner next to shift for it to work well.

Last edited by stevep99 (10-Aug-2014 19:05:43)

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Despite my initial skepticism, I decided to give the wide layout a try. That is, the "standard" version of the wide layout with right-hand keys shifted by one position.

I have been totally converted!  It is a great innovation.  The greater hand separation and much easier reach of the keys on the right-hand side would make worth while on it's own, but there is also the added benefit of the AltGr key being much easier to reach and becoming a genuine thumb key. Very useful for those of us that make use a lot of that key.

It does look a bit weird at first glance with the brackets in a row in the middle. But actually it's the / key that takes some time to adjust to.

But overall there is very little relearning for quite a large benefit. So much so that I feel like the wide layout concept should be taken up by Qwerty users, if anything even more actively, as it would be an quick an easy win for those that touch-type a least!

Last edited by stevep99 (24-Aug-2014 13:31:15)

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Nice!

I have had my wife and others write on a Wide-Angle modified keyboard without complaints. For a touch typist it's the Angle mod that takes a little effort to get used to – but it also holds the greatest ergonomic benefit I believe.

It screws me up a bit whenever I'm in newer Windows and have to type in one of those admin windows where PKL doesn't work. But it's a minor problem as soon as I concentrate a bit.

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UPDATE

Got a new mod in the works. Hopefully it will be ready to post sometime this week. As width is only one of several keyboard design issues it addresses, it will be getting it's own thread. Keep an eye out.
... ok, maybe not new-new. I just sat down and gave an old, silly idea a solid rethink.


Features:
-Thumbkeys. Shift/Backspace and Enter/Space under thumbs greatly reduces pinkie work. No key removal required this time.
-4 widths to choose from. All widths maintain familiar home row stagger. With Shift and Enter as thumb keys, no pinkie penalty to those who prefer narrower layouts. (or the Angle Mod)
-Better Mousing, Spreadsheets and Editing. Wait and see!
-and, as always, Layout Independent.

Work still needed to be done.  (For Posting under 'General' category)
-+2 key width layout draft. (+0, +1 and +3 drafts finished)
-Images of layout drafts. (ANSI and ISO. JIS probably unnecessary)

Work that really should be done. (For Posting under 'User Contribution' category)
-PKL demo versions. Ideally, QWERTY, Colemak and Dvorak; ANSI and ISO; All widths; including DreymaR's magic PKL layer.
-Windows Registry/Keytweak files.

Work that will need to be donated by generous readers.
-Linux/Mac/iOS/Android/etc. versions.
-Feedback. Current versions are the product of lots of thinking and very little testing. All of it by me. Some duplicate keys were removed and some probably need to be put back.

Last edited by cevgar (02-Nov-2014 19:05:15)
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I have come up with another brilliant but crazy hare-brained scheme!

A few posts above there was a discussion of the ultra-wide mod (moving right-hand TWO keys to the right). The main problem with it is the need to relocate some keys on the far right of the keyboard, most notably the full stop (.).

However I have revisited this idea bearing in mind that I never tend to use the right Shift key, thinking about using that fact to avoid the need to move full stop from it's usual place...

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# … 108a6391e6

As you can see, it relies on the idea of remapping AltGr to provide a thumb-key shift, allowing the usual right shift key to be freed up.

Advantages:
- Easy access to both shift and AltGr via thumb keys.
- Keeps ,. together and in the familiar position.
- Allows even greater hand separation.
- Makes Return key easy to reach at last.
- More elegant solution to number row, with -= keys kept together

Disadvantages:
- Shift key relocation might be a step too far for some!
- Need to relocate apostrophe to an unusual place.
- Possible techical difficulties in implementing on all OSs.

I am considering giving it a try. My main concern is the apostrophe though. But it does get closer to my ideal of maximising thumb key use, while keeping a standard board...
What do you guys think?

Last edited by stevep99 (12-Mar-2015 11:12:12)

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stevep99 said:

What do you guys think?

I would rather have a symmetrical layout. There is something to be said for a layout that does not feel "contrived". Moreover, the "/?" key becomes farther to reach (the "/" key is heavily used in some programming languages, and in Vi).

Incompatibilities might arise not only when switching OSes, but with physical keyboards as well, because keyboards are optimized for the standard layout, sometimes aggressively, and this can impact not only chords but even single keys.  For instance, on my Thinkpad laptop, I couldn't remap CapsLock to BackSpace because the key does not repeat, since CapsLock is not required to repeat.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your idea, and I am curious to see where it will lead.

Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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Back to the double-wide mods! Ah, for the sake of beauty...

Did you notice the Thumbs mods by Cevgar above? The Thumbs1 Angle-ANSI variant is particularly interesting I think. So it's not entirely true that the double-wide mods haven't come up in this thread before! And the idea of making the Space key into a Shift is fascinating as while I use both hands for the Shifts I only use my right thumb for Space. YMMV.

I think I've tried out an apostrophe-in-the-middle remapping for a while and didn't like it. Be warned.

The RShift appropriation doesn't sit well with me either as I use both Shifts like a good little typist. A thumb-key Shift would make me even more useless on unmapped boards at work which is a costly price to pay (albeit, fascinating yes).

As I've mentioned before, remapping modifier keys will make the implementation harder, for some OSes at least. (Yes, everybody's mentioned that twice over already; now I have too.)

Hand separation, to me, is kind of an added bonus. The main point with the Wide mod to me is a better finger load, and shorter stretches for AltGr and the pinky keys. For Back and Return I use both the physical keys and Extend combos so a single-Wide mod is good enough for me in that respect.

The DoubleWide mods are a very very pretty idea, but indeed – a bridge too far for some. ;-)

Last edited by DreymaR (12-Mar-2015 13:02:33)

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hey you've got an extra key than me to the right of the space-bar, thats not very fair?

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What's not very fair is that so many people don't have the LSGT key next to the Left Shift! ;-)

Most non-laptop boards I've seen have those four keys to the right of the Space bar: AltGr, RWin, Menu and RCtrl. Some don't have either Menu or RWin. Which one are you missing?

I've got the Menu key in my Extend layer, so on Linux machines I use the physical Menu as my Compose key (it's one of the standard options).

I use laptops regularly. They present a big problem in this context. My ThinkPad has AltGr - PrtSc - RCtrl to the right of Space! That PrtSc silliness is up for grabs of course, but there's rarely a normal setup with four keys on laptops.

Last edited by DreymaR (12-Mar-2015 15:21:07)

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Hmm yes, I had forgotten about Cevgar's suggestion, it is quite similar. Having space become shift is an interesting idea, I previously tried a dual-role space/shift approach - but it was unsuccessful. I actually type space with my left thumb so for me it makes sense to leave space as-is and relocate Shift, but these could be switched according to user preference.

I have long thought the standard Shift key positions are annoying and awkward. Thumbs are the way to go IMO. In my suggested layout, I would *only* use the thumb-key shift and not the left shift, so the apparent lack of symmetry of Shift keys wouldn't matter. I would probably also redefine apostrophe to be something like AltGr-O to keep it on the familiar finger.

For ANSI users, using this approach to turn left-shift into Z is also quite a nice idea I think.

Another option is to leave AltGr where it is, and simply redefine the RWin key (or menu key) to be thumb-Shift. This would be simpler as it only redefines one modifier key. Don't know whether that makes it easier to configure...

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ThumbsPlus-Angle(ANSI):
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | \ | = | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | Back |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g | [ | ] | j | l | u | y | ; | '  |
| Back | A | R | S | T | d | / | - | h | N | E | I | O     |
|      z | x | c | v | b |AGr| _ |Ent| k | m | , | .       |
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Shift              | Spc | W | M | Ctrl |
+----------------------------------------------------------+

• I think the minus-hyphen needs to be in a better place. It's very common. But where?
• I remember what's so wrong with apostrophe in the middle: n' bigrams ("isn't", "wouldn't" etc).
• Not sure how the Enter and AltGr would fare with this; the AltGr would be less convenient but maybe okay?
• Requires relearning (and successful remapping) of several modifiers

It's still a fun idea! :-) Especially for ANSI boards?!

• Makes ISO and ANSI typing with (Curl)Angle mods more alike!

Last edited by DreymaR (12-Mar-2015 15:47:41)

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For an ANSI board, I still think I'd go with single-column wide layout, but I do like the idea of having Shift as a thumb key (either Space or AltGr) and keeping Z in the correct place. Then I'd also press RWin into service as the new AltGr.  Something like...

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | = | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | Back |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g | [ | j | l | u | y | ; | ' | \  |
| Back | A | R | S | T | d | ] | h | N | E | I | O | Ent   |
|      z | x | c | v | b | _ | / | k | m | , | .  |Shift   |         
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Shift              | Spc |AGr| M | Ctrl |
+----------------------------------------------------------+

I think the double-wide option would be more likely to work on an ISO board than an ANSI one. It is an intriguing idea. Mind you, I was also thinking about getting a Matias Ergo Pro when the ISO ones become available - in which case maybe the temptation to play around with wide mods may suddenly disappear!

Last edited by stevep99 (23-Jan-2016 21:59:38)

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Hmm, on a slightly different but related subject - the number row. If the traditional technique is this...
http://www.typing-lessons.org/preliminaries_4.html

...then, with wide and angle mods are applied, which fingers should be typing the number keys? The logic and philosophy of the angle mod seems to suggest that maybe it should be like this..? (1=pinky, 2=ring, etc)

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| ` | = | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | Back |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g | [ | j | l | u | y | ; | ' | \  |
| Back | A | R | S | T | d | ] | h | N | E | I | O | Ent   |
|      z | x | c | v | b | _ | / | k | m | , | .  |Shift   |         
+----------------------------------------------------------+

Any thoughts on that?

Last edited by stevep99 (13-Mar-2015 13:16:06)

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The traditional technique is, obviously, horrible. I advise something like this instead:

Cmk-ISO-Angle_90d-FingerShui.png

I found that my number row technique was a bit fluid, and people may have different preferences so some keys are kept flexible in that image. In my opinion, the strong and flexible middle fingers should ideally serve two number keys each.

I use the left hand for the number 6, which is also in line with the Wide mod. Split keyboards have a tendency to keep the 6 on the left hand, too.

With the advent of the Angle mod, there was a discussion of whether it should affect the upper rows as well. I find that it doesn't really have to, as the hands aren't linear as we've been through several times over. The out-and-up stretches don't feel worse for the pinkies than the straight-up ones; slightly worse for the ring fingers but not enough for me to remap any keys on the upper or number rows!

Last edited by DreymaR (13-Mar-2015 18:04:15)

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Interesting that you use middle finger for two numbers. I guess my equivalent diagram would be like this:
wide angle with numbers
+Left hand continues to angle inward as you move up the keyboard.
+Has a nicer symmetry to it.
- Requires moving keys 1-5 from familiar positions.
- Only works when angle+wide mods are used together.

Not sure I'll actually bother to implement it though.

Last edited by stevep99 (13-Mar-2015 17:49:23)

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