FAQ point 18 - Moving the backspace key on qwerty and Dvorak layouts - General

nonanymous coward
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11-Jul-2010 03:06:38#1 FAQ point 18 - Moving the backspace key on qwerty and Dvorak layouts

Hello, I'd like to talk about an issue mentioned in the Colemak FAQ - moving the backspace key while still using qwerty.

The FAQ suggests remapping the backspace key to capslock if sticking with qwerty, and it criticizes Dvorak for being lopsided to the right hand, which to my understanding is because although the letter-hand distribution on Colemak and Dvorak have been said to be similar, the placement of backspace on Colemak makes a major difference...

(together, this would mean that remapping capslock to backspace should work great on Dvorak, but I feel that's quite obvious so it's not what I'm eager to discuss)

...but qwerty is even more lopsided to the left than Dvorak is to the right. So, it seems to me that it would be just as good or better to remap backspace to an accessible key on the right hand.

Particularly since qwerty has semicolon/colon on a home key. However, people getting used to this might be undesirable.

Aside from people potentially having an extra hurdle in adjusting to Colemak, a potentially much bigger problem would be people getting accustomed to backspace being on a home key and feeling it has to be on a home key. The chance of it might not be very big, but if it happened, that seems very bad.

The solution that constraint pushes would be to bump apostrophe over onto semicolon, and put backspace where apostrophe was, the mirror position of its location on Colemak.

So, I'm trying to get some sort of perspective on how such habits might transfer over.

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olanordmann
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11-Jul-2010 04:12:36#2 Re: FAQ point 18 - Moving the backspace key on qwerty and Dvorak layouts

To me at least it seems like doing radical changes like that would not be something really desirable at all, One of the good things with colemak is that it stays away from messing too much with punctuation,

The caps lock key is a minor change (unless you like me used to have it remapped to ctrl) but what you suggest will really throw things around with fairly frequently used punctuation.

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kqr
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11-Jul-2010 09:17:01#3 Re: FAQ point 18 - Moving the backspace key on qwerty and Dvorak layouts

Although, you pose an interesting point unknowingly. I actually think that backspace is not even in the calculation when deciding lopsidedness. Rather, you take some piece of text, and then just count the characters which are on one side of the keyboard.

I really wish there was a good keylogger for OS X which actually recorded the /keypresses/ and not the text produced.

Current Colemak: http://hi-games.net/typing-test,60/watch?u=1388

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nonanymous coward
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17-Jul-2010 18:49:15#4 Re: FAQ point 18 - Moving the backspace key on qwerty and Dvorak layouts

Radical? Come on, that's just silly. Just look at things relating to keyboard layouts a bit and you will see real radical.

How about trusting a relatively simple program to be the ultimate authority on what's the perfect layout, or some of those keyboards that cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars? How about some of the things people have done with colemak on this board? Hell, even cramming 40% of letter strokes on the index fingers could be construed as radical.

Upgrading keyboard layouts just isn't simple and casual like helping yourself to a trackball.

And yet... you're ignoring the solution in question that really does look truly radical - putting backspace on a home key.

Of course backspace is not in the calculations per se, its rate of use differs between people and even between different times the same person is typing, so trying to come up with any sort of figures on it and getting them to be agreed upon would be an absolute nightmare... but its role in affecting hand balance has been acknowledged.

Last edited by nonanymous coward (17-Jul-2010 18:49:31)

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olanordmann
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17-Jul-2010 19:26:42#5 Re: FAQ point 18 - Moving the backspace key on qwerty and Dvorak layouts

Well, I don't tell you what you can or can't do, if you want to put the win key on the homerow I wouldn't care a second, so I don't see at all what you are getting so upset about, please calm down and let's discuss this as real men, and don't hit each other in the head with big clubs, because nothing good comes out of that,

The thing is that also when you optimise a keyboard with some sort of an algorithm you have to choose what you want to optimise for. I have been using both dvorak which is not really that radical, and arensito2 which I daresay is rather radical, the thing is that they don't fit my comfort of writing. The thing for me too is not only distribution of fingers, but a lot of factors.

Your other argument goes about money, I don't know about you, but for me more expensive is not better, you can talk about the yummy food at a luxury restaurant, and you can bet that most people would enjoy a good grilled chicken a lot more. You can show me a new shiny over designed mac a day, and chances are I will be more happy with a 5 year old box running linux, I think you catch my drift here

For me updating the keyboard layout is a lot easier than letting a trackball, since I would have to leave the house for the latter.
putting backspace on home row is a good thing for learning, and it's not like anyone stands over you with the glowing iron telling you to do like anyone tell you to, if you hate the placement so much it is an easy and short change for you to do yourself, even easier than it is to push colemark over to being a bit more friendly to your own language, but since relatively few people write like me it's nothing I advocate for others..

TLDR: Calm down, no one forces you to stay on basic colemark...

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nonanymous coward
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18-Jul-2010 02:28:19#6 Re: FAQ point 18 - Moving the backspace key on qwerty and Dvorak layouts

What makes you suspect, let alone be so convinced I'm upset? And it's all the more ridiculous to say I'm not being calm. And then you elaborately paint me as being not just upset, but wildly outraged, defensive and hysterical. I could just as easily accuse you of being upset, and go into how, why and in what ways you come off as upset, but I'd prefer to steer clear of dwelling on and wildly speculating about each other's emotional states and drop it.

Now, that win key idea that you used as an example is pretty bad at being bad, if you used global shortcuts extremely casually, then putting the windows key on capslock, semicolon, or apostrophe / minus(if you're using Dvorak) seems entirely reasonable.

If you think Dvorak isn't radical, then, well ... nevermind to what degree that might be right or wrong, you're blatantly being inconsistent with your own previous assumptions.

That one example of the four I gave was barely even about money. It was referring to any of the Maltron keyboards, chorded keyboards and whatever else there is out there along those lines. Though the cost of those does contribute to them being a solution which is radical...

...and I have no idea how you construed that to mean their cost is connected to them being better instead of their cost being connected to them being radical.

Leaving the house generally isn't that hard. In fact, most people do it everyday! Not trying to imply that that's something that everyone has to, should, or should want to do, or that it's a good idea to hop into a vehicle of one type or another when for whatever reason you feel like being in another place but ... let's not get ridiculous here, buying a more ergonomic input device that's actually available at a local store isn't a big deal if you think about it... besides, you can even order things online, you know? It would be comically presumptive to just write off and scoff at the possibility that trackballs might be a more efficient way to ease strain on your hands. Now, if you live in a cabin in the woods or in Greenland or something, sorry ... but that still would be pretty damn removed from whether trackballs are an easy to swallow comfort aid, in general or in principle.

And I really can't wrap my head around how to contextualize that last bit, I mean, really, who doesn't hate the placement of semicolon on qwerty?

PS: Misogynist! </tongue firmly in cheek>

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olanordmann
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18-Jul-2010 11:59:25#7 Re: FAQ point 18 - Moving the backspace key on qwerty and Dvorak layouts

I think I was reading you completely wrong and I'm really sorry for that, but good that you took it with humor, and you did give me a good chuckle at my own stupidity, so that's good :) So thanks for not doing the same thing as me and come out as the better man/woman

Well, I used to have my caps-lock mapped to ctrl, something that really comes in handy as I am using ratpoison, a windowmanager for linux that is pretty heavy on the ctrl use. It might be some strange kind of aversion that I have to move some keys that "have always been right there" even in dvorak, so that is probably my dogmatic mind.

I think I am a hypocrite in more ways than that way, but for some reason scrambling the alphabetic keys doesn't bother me, neither does basic punctuation, but I guess I have my holy cow thing with the apostrophe key ;)

Ah, then I get your point about cost, I was reading you wrong there too (seems to be a theme here) I really am intrigued by a lot of these new keyboards, it's just that being in europe and being a student means that there are a lot of costs with getting the things over, and it's hard to justify the cost, but man I really do want some of the cool stuff, the frogpad always intrigued me, but what I have been looking at lately is the stenotype keyboards, writing speeds of over 200 WPM yey! So I'm looking in to plover now, and that seems like a really interresting project, just have to get back to europe before I start fixing with it, so that is a radical that I don't have a problem with, wow, now I'm even confusing myself.

Speaking of a cabin in the woods in greenland, you are actually not too far off base, I grew up way into the woods of norway without a car, (until I was 18) and by bike the closest electrics store, was about an hour away ;) Now using a mouse isn't really something for me, I threw away my mouse 2-3 months ago, and I control my machine with just the keyboard.

Hmm that has to be a us-keyboard thing, since on most european keyboards that I have used semi-colon is on shift+comma, I have always though been a bit bothered by having all the special letters on the right pinkey, since in scandinavian and other germanic languages these are pretty frequent letters, But I'm rambling again.

I don't get why you call me a misogynist though, did I say something that made you feel that way, I'm really sorry if I stepped on someones toes, I just have to say that I prefer girls to guys really, but well..

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