spremino said:Horizontal travel distance is not the issue here. Vertical travel distance - e.g.: pressing keys - on a standard keyboard (staggered keys) is the issue. Laptop-style keys - that is: scissor-switch keys - have shorter travel. As key-travel shortens, so do the difficult stroke-path I mentioned. Again, this is a subjective issue: DreymaR uses the same keyboard as I do, but it doesn't share my discomfort, it seems.
I don't think laptop keyboards have different vertical travel distance. They are almost the same if not a difference of one or two millimeters. Rather the dimensions of keys are different where laptop keys are bigger with lesser spacing between keys which is better I feel. But both are basically not designed scientifically in accordance with where our fingers fall naturally.
Laptop keys have 2 mm travel distance vs 4 mm of other keyboards. The former make you bottoming out at every stroke. Why bottoming out matters? Before designing a new keyboard layout, you should make yourself more knowledgeable about keyboard ergonomics. Hang out for a while in the "keyboards" section of ww.geekhack.org
spremino said:Difficult stroke paths do matter to me, because I type on a buckling-spring keyboard, which I've found to be the better for ergonomic reasons. To people who type on membrane-based o laptop-like keyboards, this issue will matter less.
On any keyboard same finger typing and home row jumping( hurdling as Dvorak calls it) are more difficult stroke path where Dvorak comes inferior.
I don't agree: some row-jumps are quite comfortable. On my netbook chiclet keyboard, even more so. I have a difficult time with WA/AW on my desktop keyboard, much less so on my netbook. Thus both kind of jump/stroke-path and choice of keyboard matter.
What does matter the most to you? Comfort or speed? Same-finger and row-jumping slow you down, but can be comfortable. Difficult stroke paths are awkward above anything else.
Apart from that, my statistics on this is slightly different. More or less same about Dvorak. But not with Colemak. One, right pinky isn't that loaded to be at 11%. Two, right ring finger isn't less used compared to right pinky.
Since he stated what books he was using as input, this shouldn't be a subjective metric. Different fingering, maybe? This is why I asked you about your statistics and tools you have used.
spremino said:What do you consider "row-jumping"? Same-finger row-jumping or different-fingers row-jumping? In the former case, you have a point; in the latter case, again, it depends.
I've incorporated both in my above calculations. It's the whole total. Both are more difficult than AW/WA. As per my calculation, Dvorak has this almost 7 times compared to my layouts.
Not at all. BL/LB, BR/RB, LM (Dvorak) are way easier than WA/AW (Colemak): my hand hardly moves from home position while typing them, therefore they don't feel as row-jumps to me. LV (Dvorak) is what I consider an awkward row-jumps.
Even PE/EP on Dvorak I couldn't stand as I begun studying such layout, but I ended up accepting that compromise because alternatives were worse.
spremino said:Home-row typing is overrated. Other keys besides home-row keys are easier enough to hit. The most easier are I, O, U (Qwerty), I think.
Can't help it friend if you find everything overrated than AW/WA. "I" is a very highly used key and if it's outside the home positions, it affects your speed. Besides I,O,U other easier spots are M,V,G,H,W,E,R (QWERTY)
By "overrated" I mean they are given too much importance than other metrics. Dvorak valued comfort more than distance (hint: that's why he placed U where it is). I prefer same-finger to awkward stroke-paths. Modern designers obsess on distance and same-finger at the expense of comfort.
spremino said:"you have to move your pinky to hit it": if you meant you have to stretch your pinky, that's wrong. You shouldn't move your fingers, you should move your hands insted. Anyway, typing distance is overrated. Yes, less is more, but floating your hands some more time is less important than other metrics.
Either way, it's more effort. That's my point. This effort should be given to stronger fingers. It skews finger load distribution as well.
Here's my stat on inward rolls and outward rolls (quick rolling over adjacent keys):
Dvorak: inward - 5%
outward - 1.14%Colemak: inward - 4.4%
outward - 2.235%mine: inward - 9.7%
outward - 3.1%my dvorak like: inward - 6.4%
outward - 2.34%
Could you please detailed statistics about the inward-rolls sequences you have considered.
spremino said:You should show us Dvorak 2010. That is, a layout which achieves the same goals Dvorak had and achieves them better than Dvorak 1936.
People mostly nowadays believe goals different from Dvorak's are better for a keyboard meant for touch-feeding inputs to a computer - something nonexistent during Dvorak's time. It would be pointless to expect me - or others- to adopt typewriter goals.
It would be pointless only as soon as you - and others - do stop saying that Dvorak's work was suboptimal because he lacked the aid of computers. You have stated that you can beat Dvorak at his own game thanks to computers. Again, please either prove your statement with detailed statistics or withdraw it.
spremino said:I do too. However, we disagree about what "load" and "more difficult parameters" are.
We both know what load is.. We agree on this, but how does for instance Colemak score vs Dvorak? Here we go: is something you yourself said. There's no doubt a layout that distributes evenly is better. And as far as more difficult parameters are concerned, I would say BL/LB, BR/RB and likes on Dvorak are more serious than AW/WA, ES/SE (qwerty). Same finger is almost the same as AW/WA and likes. And then there's the overall effort which is given by finger travel.
I don't consider BL/LB, BR/RB and likes on Dvorak to be more serious than AW/WA, ES/SE (qwerty). Quite the opposite.
spremino said:Examples and measurements, please?
The whole essay I was saying it. Refer to the specs I posted in the previous post.
I fail to see them, then. What post of yours are you talking about? Some clumped-together data ain't a measurement. As I have stated, not all row-jumping matters the same, thus you should release detailed data. Have you considered writing a web-page about your layout?
spremino said:See? That's subjectivity. I couldn't type AR or OI (Colemak) comfortably on a keyboard: fingers almost lock. ART (Colemak) would be a killer ;-) Which is more common, your feeling or mine? We should poll users.
Haha, I think it's possible to get real world data which would tend to converge to a point. I believe inward roll is easier comparatively. Something wrong with your fingers :P
Since Dvorak reflects my feeling, I wouldn't say that I'm alone on this.
EDIT: I managed to find a copy of the article by the guy who tried to improve over Dvorak: http://web.archive.org/web/200802241359 … olved.html
Dvorak typist here. Please take my comments with a grain of salt.