Is colemav the best in purely theoritical sense? - General

spleenVentingPinky
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27-Nov-2010 18:10:03#1 Is colemav the best in purely theoritical sense?

Today I've known cokemak, and I'm interested in this.
I had learned dvorak in little difficulty after some years of qwerty typing.
And I know the way to make Ctrl+Z,X,C,V solved no matter what layout I choose. (I can use AutoHotKey, or other.)
So, my concern is, can we call colemak the best in the knowledge of colemak community,
without all the de facto state of qwerty dominance.

Do you have any better layout for people who can learn any layout in no time, and can't have a problem of Ctrl+Z matters.

(My English must be coarse. I'm non-native. I expect your understandings.)

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pinkyache
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27-Nov-2010 21:14:23#2 Re: Is colemav the best in purely theoritical sense?

Is the question:
Is Colemak the easiest layout to learn for those without previous touch typing or typing experience?

Last edited by pinkyache (27-Nov-2010 21:14:40)

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spleenVentingPinky
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28-Nov-2010 04:57:43#3 Re: Is colemav the best in purely theoritical sense?

Yes, my point is, put learning cost (and zxcv problems) aside, is there any better layout? (As long as, keyboard hardware is fixed.)

For example, if slightly diffrent version of colemak, with 'x'zvc on the lower left is better than that of zxcv, I want to know it.
I would think of learning the diffrent version of colemak (or, maybe, others).

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spremino
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28-Nov-2010 19:15:46#4 Re: Is colemav the best in purely theoritical sense?

There is no best layout. Every designer thinks some issues are more relevant than others. Shai's goals while designing Colemak are well known, Dvorak had different goals, other designers had their own goals too. You pick your layout depending on what goals you think are the most relevant. I picked Dvorak, then tried Colemak, but it didn't feel good, so I sticked with Dvorak. Other Dvorak typists here made the switch however.

I think that if a layout is designed for ergonomics, then it will be easy to learn, no matter what. This is where I think typing tutors fail: they make the layout relevant. It isn't: you should be learning most common letters and sequences, no matter what ergonomic layout you are using.

Dvorak typist here. Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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lethalrocks
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29-Nov-2010 14:53:06#5 Re: Is colemav the best in purely theoritical sense?

spleenVentingPinky said:

Yes, my point is, put learning cost (and zxcv problems) aside, is there any better layout? (As long as, keyboard hardware is fixed.)

Sounds like you're looking for something like the Carpalx-generated, fully-optimised set of layouts, probably the 'qgmlwy' one. Note that this still isn't the 'best' layout, just the most efficient carpalx has created according to its algorithm, because that depends on how you define best, which often depends on other things. (e.g. the most efficient layout for an essay writer is the one that can produce a whole essay with one key!)

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DreymaR
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30-Nov-2010 16:51:01#6 Re: Is colemav the best in purely theoritical sense?

Spremino: I think the typing tutors aren't being all that stupid, IFF the point is to train your weaknesses! See, their geometric approach to the keyboard guarantees that you train even the rare letters which othewise will be slow to learn. However, this is an advanced approach and most beginners aren't aware of that.

So I agree that early training is better done using real texts. There are typing trainers that let you do this too, as you know.

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spremino
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30-Nov-2010 17:46:54#7 Re: Is colemav the best in purely theoritical sense?

DreymaR said:

Spremino: I think the typing tutors aren't being all that stupid, IFF the point is to train your weaknesses! See, their geometric approach to the keyboard guarantees that you train even the rare letters which othewise will be slow to learn. However, this is an advanced approach and most beginners aren't aware of that.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Every typing tutor I've seen was tied to a keyboard layout. That was obvious for tutors targeting Qwerty, which asked students to type useless and boring sequences like "JFJFJFJFJFJ". How useful is that? I think the best learning path is learning to type according to real texts statistics, that is: practicing most frequent letters and letters sequences, no matter what layout you are using. That's what I mean by saying that typing tutors should be based on real text.

DreymaR said:

So I agree that early training is better done using real texts. There are typing trainers that let you do this too, as you know.

As I've explained above, I don't think so. Typing tutors should make you train your weaknesses, as you stated before. Otherwise, every time you stumble upon a less frequent sequence, your flow breaks.

Dvorak typist here. Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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