• You are not logged in.

    Qwerty compromise

    • Started by countach
    • 10 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 19-Dec-2005
    • Posts: 11

    Out of curiousity, how much does keeping the qwerty positions of ZXCVBM.,/[]Q-=ASH compromise the most optimal design? 


    And how many of these were positioned for compatibility, and how many are in the same place more or less by luck?


    How much does the design criterion "Colemak has been designed to keep hand changes [from QWERTY] to the absolute minimum in order to ease learning." compromise the ideal layout?


    If keeping qwerty positions was a design criterion, is there any particular reason W has moved one key across?

    Offline
    • 0
    • Shai
    • Administrator
    • Reputation: 36
    • Registered: 11-Dec-2005
    • Posts: 423

    There could be perhaps some minor improvements from moving around the punctuation keys, but even if it will improve one aspect, it might make another aspect worse. Overall I estimate that the layout is pretty close to the theoretical maximums. Moreover, most of the other layouts have at least one glaring flaw, and I believe that Colemak balances everything rather evenly. The V and B would be better switched, but they're left for compatibility reasons.

    The W moved [in the old Colemak version] because it was almost the only letter that doesn't cause a high same-finger ratio with C and R, and it fits well from a finger balance point of view.

    Last edited by Shai (16-Jan-2006 04:06:29)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 19-Dec-2005
    • Posts: 11

    Interesting. You ought to write a paper sometime detailing your research.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 26-Aug-2006
    • Posts: 6
    Shai said:

    The W moved [in the old Colemak version] because it was almost the only letter that doesn't cause a high same-finger ratio with C and R, and it fits well from a finger balance point of view.

    Why did you move the W back then between the two colemaks versions? I'm just curious

    Offline
    • 0
    • Shai
    • Administrator
    • Reputation: 36
    • Registered: 11-Dec-2005
    • Posts: 423

    In the old Colemak I wanted to keep the S in the QWERTY position in order to maintain the Ctrl+S shortcut, however the new Colemak layout doesn't make that compromise.

    The advantages of the new layout:
    * Lower same-finger ratio.
    * Slightly lower same hand row jumping.
    * Slightly better finger balance.
    * Keeps the W in the same place. It's more important to keep the Ctrl+W shortcut (Close Window under MS Windows) because Ctrl+W is a potentially destructive shortcut.
    * Less frequent keys take longer to learn, so it better to keep the W in the same place rather than keeping the S in the same place.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: -5
    • From: Banned
    • Registered: 02-May-2015
    • Posts: 116
    Shai said:

    * Less frequent keys take longer to learn, so it better to keep the W in the same place rather than keeping the S in the same place.

    There are two arguments:
    1. Less frequent keys take longer to learn, because it's harder to find a need to use these keys.
    2. A more common key requires to more commonly relearn letters, causing frustration. First argument isn't true because there are typing lessons for rare and common letters.

    Banned from Colemak

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: -5
    • From: Banned
    • Registered: 02-May-2015
    • Posts: 116
    Shai said:

    * Lower same-finger ratio.

    Patorjk thinks the older layout has less same+finger. http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-anal … d/jZPnbsg7

    Banned from Colemak

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 210
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,345

    My experience with moving different keys a few keys at a time has been that the less frequent keys cause the most total frustration. The frustration of the common keys is quickly overcome – especially since these almost always move to better positions (or they wouldn't be worth moving). The flow disruption caused by a mistake lingers on for the less frequent keys for a much longer while after moving them.

    Again, your claims seem poorly thought out, Piotr. I think the first argument is very much true based on experience. And the lessons for rare letters are boring, frustrating in themselves and don't really help that much in my experience. I'd rather move a few keys at a time like Tarmak does and keep typing interesting stuff!

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: -5
    • From: Banned
    • Registered: 02-May-2015
    • Posts: 116
    DreymaR said:

    Again, your claims seem poorly thought out, Piotr. I think the first argument is very much true based on experience. And the lessons for rare letters are boring, frustrating in themselves and don't really help that much in my experience. I'd rather move a few keys at a time like Tarmak does and keep typing interesting stuff!

    The more common keys moved, more mistakes. Why typing lessons are boring?

    Banned from Colemak

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • From: Poland
    • Registered: 06-Jan-2015
    • Posts: 26

    Most of the 'typing lessons' don't teach typing. They require you to repeat e.g. "gggg jjjj" "gjgj gjgj" to learn where the key is placed, but that doesn't help with normal writing.
    There is more info about that on keybr's help page.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 210
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,345

    Piotr: Per minute, sure, more common keys will cause more errors. But over time I've found that I learn the common keys very quickly and then they're okay. The rare keys are learnt slowly and cause frustration for a much longer time, so I feel that in total they cause more typing disruption over time.

    Typing lessons are boring because it's so much more fun to be typing a book in Amphetype, or at least some proper text in another trainer. I love it!

    Last edited by DreymaR (15-Jun-2015 17:31:33)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0