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What's wrong with the Dvorak layout?

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From the FAQ at https://colemak.com/FAQ#What.27s_wrong_ … _layout.3F

The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY. Colemak has been designed to be easy to learn.

The biggest difficulty is in getting anyone to consider a change of layout, not what form the layout is. Almost half - 16 of 33 - keys change position when moving from Sholes to Colemak. I personally do not see this as a big advantage over the Dvorak, even though this changes the positions of all but two keys (A and M). A layout is a gestalt, and has to be learned as a whole.

Dr. Dvorak designed his Simplified Layout to be 'easier to learn' too - and it is.

Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky. Colemak doesn't place frequent letters where the pinkies stretch.

The 'Dactylograph' at https://infohost.nmt.edu/~shipman/ergo/parkinson.html clearly shows that using the Sholes layout, the right pinky is under-utilized: it does only 1.7% (!) of the work. The Dvorak layout corrects this imbalance, sharing out finger loads more evenly and in proportion to their strengths.

Anyone moving from Sholes to Dvorak will go from not having to use that right pinky very much at all, to having to use it quite a bit more. Naturally this will feel as though this digit is being 'overworked,' but the truth is that it hasn't been carrying its fair share of the load up to then!

It is significantly lopsided so that the right hand does too much work.

Again referring to the 'Dactylograph,' using Dvorak the (intentional) split is 45.7% left, 54.3% right. Referring to this as being 'significantly lopsided' is an exaggeration. For comparison, what is the split on the Colemak? It cannot be totally 50-50!

It's not comfortable to use Ctrl-Z/X/C/V shortcuts with the left hand while holding the mouse with the right hand. Colemak conserves those shortcuts in their QWERTY positions.

Whilst this is a fair observation, Ctrl-Z/X/C/V are not the only options for these common functions. E.g. consider, respectively, Alt+Backspace/Shift+Delete/Ctrl+Insert/Shift+Insert, though I grant you that these will also be hard to use if a main criterium is consideration of a (right-handed) rodent. Nor are these the only keyboard shortcuts - there are many others that have to be re-learnt as a result of switching to a different layout.

-----------

There are trillions of possible keyboard layouts, probably a great many of these could be argued as being 'the best' for various reasons.

The fact that so many people who are clearly pro-change have chosen to promote yet another alternative layout reminds me of the Popular Front of Judea (Life of Brian).

"We should be struggling together!"
"We are!"

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  • Shai
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I'm not inventing any of these issues All these things that have been mentioned have been experienced independently by other people. I'll post some relevant quotes:

*Ease of learning

padde said:

First thoughts - way easier to learn than Dvorak. I type faster after a couple of hours with Colemak than I ever managed after having spent several weeks trying to learn Dvorak

Louis said:

I'd tried to learn Dvorak a couple months before, but it was much harder to switch to, didn't feel all that thought out, and eventually, the XCV positions (habits?) forced me to stop and go back to QWERTY.

*About the L and S on Dvorak

holm said:

I experimented with dvorak for a short while, but given that I am working with UNIX-like systems and do a lot of command line work, the 'l' and 's' placement was extremely annoying. It was in-fact such a big problem that I gave up.

dcstraw said:

First I tried Dvorak, but two flaws became clear to me after one day at it: My right pinkie was already starting to hurt, and I found that I really missed my Ctrl+Z,X,C,V shortcuts.

*About being lopsided: according to my statistics, it's more like 40%/60% for Dvorak, you can try it for yourself on the compare page (which doesn't take into account backspace and the space bar). If you take in to account the backspace key, enter key and the space bar, it becomes more like 33%/67%. See also the ryanheise.com typing test, and compare it visually for yourself. That said, I don't think it matters that much, and I don't think anyone has mentioned it as a reason for switching to Colemak.
*Keyboard shortcuts: again, take a look at the forum, or just with the quotes mentioned above.

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wibble said:

From the FAQ at https://colemak.com/FAQ#What.27s_wrong_ … _layout.3F

The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY. Colemak has been designed to be easy to learn.

The biggest difficulty is in getting anyone to consider a change of layout, not what form the layout is. Almost half - 16 of 33 - keys change position when moving from Sholes to Colemak. I personally do not see this as a big advantage over the Dvorak, even though this changes the positions of all but two keys (A and M). A layout is a gestalt, and has to be learned as a whole.

Sorry, but I beg to differ.  It's not just that Colemak moves a lot fewer keys than Dvorak.  Since you seem to have missed the points on this made in the FAQ, I repeat them here for you.


Keys remain close to their QWERTY positions

The keys in Colemak are just a key or two away from their QWERTY position (except E/P/Y). This makes it easy to visually 'hunt' for the keys. Moreover, it makes it easy to 'hunt' on QWERTY when you're temporarily forced to use the QWERTY layout.

Only two keys move between hands from QWERTY

The hardest keys to learn are those that move between hands. Colemak only moves 2 keys between hands, compared with 22 that move hands in Dvorak.

The bottom rows remains mostly unchanged

Except of 'K' instead of 'N' the bottom row remains the same. The bottom row is a bit more difficult to learn because of the way the keys are aligned.

No typing tricks required

To achieve a high typing speed on QWERTY, most people employ tricks to avoid same finger typing, such as when typing the ED digraph. On Colemak these kinds of tricks aren't necessary.

Many low frequency keys do not move

Colemak minimizes moving low frequency keys and except ; and : all punctuation keys remain in their QWERTY positions. Low frequency keys take the longest to relearn because you practice them less often.

Memorization isn't linear

Memorizing a 10 digit number takes much more time than memorizing a 5 digit number (more than twice the time). Colemak moves only 17 keys, while Dvorak moves 33 keys.

Avoids confusing key switches
Colemak avoids confusing changes, such as T and Y being switched on Dvorak.

Backspace key on home row

During the learning phase errors occur very often. By placing the Backspace in easy reach reduces the frustation and allows to easily correct errors.

Last edited by keyboard samurai (06-Jan-2008 19:30:52)
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wibble said:

Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky. Colemak doesn't place frequent letters where the pinkies stretch.

The 'Dactylograph' at https://infohost.nmt.edu/~shipman/ergo/parkinson.html clearly shows that using the Sholes layout, the right pinky is under-utilized: it does only 1.7% (!) of the work. The Dvorak layout corrects this imbalance, sharing out finger loads more evenly and in proportion to their strengths.

Anyone moving from Sholes to Dvorak will go from not having to use that right pinky very much at all, to having to use it quite a bit more. Naturally this will feel as though this digit is being 'overworked,' but the truth is that it hasn't been carrying its fair share of the load up to then!

That's going to be small comfort to someone going through the frustration of switching from Qwerty to an alternative layout.  Dvorak's focus was to create a layout easy to learn for beginning touch typists.  After decades, 99%+ of touch typists out there are still learning Qwerty first.  Colemak acknowledges the reality of this dominance.  The fact remains that putting "L" there makes for noticeable discomfort for Qwerty touch typists trying to switch.

And for those of us with a boxer's break in our right hand causing the pinkie knuckle not to be where it should be because of a 18 degree kink in the metacarpal bone, Dvorak is pure hell!     (ok, I am martial artist, there are risks in punching people in the head really hard, hand anatomy isn't always up to it.)

Last edited by keyboard samurai (06-Jan-2008 19:52:07)
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wibble said:

From the FAQ at
[b]It's not comfortable to use Ctrl-Z/X/C/V shortcuts with the left hand while holding the mouse with the right hand. Colemak conserves those shortcuts in their QWERTY positions.

Whilst this is a fair observation, Ctrl-Z/X/C/V are not the only options for these common functions. E.g. consider, respectively, Alt+Backspace/Shift+Delete/Ctrl+Insert/Shift+Insert, though I grant you that these will also be hard to use if a main criterium is consideration of a (right-handed) rodent. Nor are these the only keyboard shortcuts - there are many others that have to be re-learnt as a result of switching to a different layout.

The point is that Colemak keeps some very common ones.  Moving keys is always going to come with compromises.

For a Mac user like myself, you notice that Colemak offers a much easier one handed Cmd-T shortcut for tabbing in Safari. 
Dvorak requires use of both hands.   The all important Cmd-Q for quit and Cmd-W for closing a window have not moved.


Another issue you seemed to have missed that Colemak pays attention to while Dvorak being from a pre-PC era does not,  repeating from the FAQ

Potentially destructive shortcuts:

Some users in Dvorak intend to hit Ctrl+V (Paste) but instead hit accidentally the adjacent Ctrl+W, thus losing everything they've typed. Colemak has been designed so most of the potentially destructive shortcuts (Q - Quit, X - Exit, Ctrl+Z - Undo, Ctrl+X - Cut, Ctrl+W - Close Window), will remain the same as QWERTY.

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Shai said:

I'm not inventing any of these issues All these things that have been mentioned have been experienced independently by other people. I'll post some relevant quotes:

I hear you, but anecdotes aren't convincing. Where's the research? (I'm not saying it's not been done, I'm saying I haven't found it yet, if it does exist). Here are some more anecdotes for your list:

*Ease of learning

wibble said:

I'm unconvinced that the Colemak offers sufficient advantages over Dvorak to give it a try. Having learnt the Dvorak layout in about a month and finding that it is amazingly better than Sholes/'QWERTY,' there is little point in learning another one.

*About the L and S on Dvorak

wibble said:

When learning Dvorak, I did find at first that my right pinkie was becoming fatiqued, but this feeling disappeared after about a month. I attribute the initial discomfort to the fact that with the Sholes layout the right-hand little finger is under-utilised, and therefore required a period of exercise before becoming strong enough for the task. I do appreciate that for those who code unix and therefore need to type 'ls-l' frequently, it could be a problem - however, an easy solution would be to code this sequence as a separate hotkey.

=======

Shai said:

*About being lopsided: according to my statistics, it's more like 40%/60% for Dvorak, you can try it for yourself on the compare page (which doesn't take into account backspace and the space bar). If you take in to account the backspace key, enter key and the space bar, it becomes more like 33%/67%. See also the ryanheise.com typing test, and compare it visually for yourself. That said, I don't think it matters that much, and I don't think anyone has mentioned it as a reason for switching to Colemak.

I agree with you that 'lopsidedness' doesn't matter that much. But I have to take issue with your statement that you 'don't think anyone has mentioned it as a reason for switching to Colemak' - it's stated on your FAQ as 'wrongness' of the Dvorak layout. As far as I can see - please correct me if I'm wrong - the Colemak layout features approximately the same element of 'lopsidedness'. Isn't it therefore somewhat disingenuous to include this statement as a 'wrongness' feature of Dvorak?

Last edited by wibble (07-Jan-2008 16:40:57)
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keyboard samurai said:
wibble said:

From the FAQ at https://colemak.com/FAQ#What.27s_wrong_ … _layout.3F

The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY. Colemak has been designed to be easy to learn.

The biggest difficulty is in getting anyone to consider a change of layout, not what form the layout is. Almost half - 16 of 33 - keys change position when moving from Sholes to Colemak. I personally do not see this as a big advantage over the Dvorak, even though this changes the positions of all but two keys (A and M). A layout is a gestalt, and has to be learned as a whole.

Sorry, but I beg to differ.  It's not just that Colemak moves a lot fewer keys than Dvorak.  Since you seem to have missed the points on this made in the FAQ, I repeat them here for you.

No, I didn't miss the other points made in the FAQ. Some of them are valid, I don't dispute that. However, all but one of those you highlight refers to the changes made from the Sholes layout. The main assumption made is that the Colemak is superior to Dvorak because it is easier to learn Colemak if you already know the Sholes layout - I'm not disputing this, though I would dearly like to see an objective study of this assertion to prove whether it is true. I would also like to see research into the comparison of learning ease for those completely new to keyboards.

My main concern is the fact that children - some of them very young - are being effectively forced, by peer pressure, into learning an obsolete layout. From the perspective of the totally new user, is the Colemak better than Dvorak? More than this, is it sufficiently better that it is worthwhile further confusing those who are in a position to promote a change from the Sholes standard by bringing Colemak into the discussion?

keyboard samurai said:

Memorization isn't linear

Memorizing a 10 digit number takes much more time than memorizing a 5 digit number (more than twice the time). Colemak moves only 17 keys, while Dvorak moves 33 keys.

Your assertion is misleading. It takes a smidgeon over twice as long to memorize a 10-digit number than a 5-digit one. The smidgeon arises from splitting the task into the memorization of two 5-digit numbers.

keyboard samurai said:

Backspace key on home row

During the learning phase errors occur very often. By placing the Backspace in easy reach reduces the frustation and allows to easily correct errors.

Moving the backspace key would certainly appear to be a change that would have many benefits to the touch-typist. My own preference here would be to split the - unnecessarily long - space bar into two, and assign the backspace function to the left thumb: but that would require an alteration of the physical keyboard, something that Dr. Dvorak himself recognised as better avoided.

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keyboard samurai said:

Dvorak's focus was to create a layout easy to learn for beginning touch typists.  After decades, 99%+ of touch typists out there are still learning Qwerty first. Colemak acknowledges the reality of this dominance.

I agree. And the thing I'm struggling with is how Colemak compares to Dvorak for those beginning touch typists. The hardest part of the task is to get people to agree to make a change... and having got that agreement, it is better to change to the best available rather than to a half-way house.

keyboard samurai said:

And for those of us with a boxer's break in our right hand causing the pinkie knuckle not to be where it should be because of a 18 degree kink in the metacarpal bone, Dvorak is pure hell!     (ok, I am martial artist, there are risks in punching people in the head really hard, hand anatomy isn't always up to it.)

I'm glad that you have found a keyboard layout that caters for your particular circumstances.

Perhaps the ideal solution would be to be able to analyze each individual and determine the particular layout that is optimum for each person. Dr. Dvorak himself pioneered this concept, by devising separate layouts for those who can only use one hand: current technology allows for the easy customisation of the layout, so that those whose fingers work with outboard rather than inboard stroke flow, and those who perhaps have lost digits could be accommodated with their own personalised layout.

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keyboard samurai said:

Another issue you seemed to have missed that Colemak pays attention to while Dvorak being from a pre-PC era does not,  repeating from the FAQ

Potentially destructive shortcuts:

Some users in Dvorak intend to hit Ctrl+V (Paste) but instead hit accidentally the adjacent Ctrl+W, thus losing everything they've typed. Colemak has been designed so most of the potentially destructive shortcuts (Q - Quit, X - Exit, Ctrl+Z - Undo, Ctrl+X - Cut, Ctrl+W - Close Window), will remain the same as QWERTY.

No, I didn't miss that point, it's very valid. I too hit Ctrl+W by accident once when intending to hit Ctrl+V, and I agree that it is a problem. My solution has been to retrain myself NOT to use the Ctrl+C/V/X keys, but to use Shift&Ctrl+Insert & Delete, instead - easily done with one hand (the right) - it comes in handy being able to use the mouse with either hand :)

Monty Python's Life of Brian said:

"We are all different!"
"Yes, we ARE all different!"

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I specifically state in the FAQ that "The switch won't be as easy for veteran Dvorak users. If you're generally happy with Dvorak, you should probably stick with it". Obviously, you're delighted with Dvorak, so there's no point of learning a new keyboard layout for you.

wibble said:

Your assertion is misleading. It takes a smidgeon over twice as long to memorize a 10-digit number than a 5-digit one. The smidgeon arises from splitting the task into the memorization of two 5-digit numbers.

I changed the example, time yourself memorizing a 16 character random password (e.g. WLJc8Rs2MqwChYM1) and compare it with memorizing an 8 character password. (e.g. pK3QCfyT). I'll be surprised if it would take you a "smidgeon over twice as long to memorize", I expect it to take about 4 times longer.

wibble said:

I'm unconvinced that the Colemak offers sufficient advantages over Dvorak to give it a try. Having learnt the Dvorak layout in about a month and finding that it is amazingly better than Sholes/'QWERTY,' there is little point in learning another one.

I can't place too much weight on your opinion, because you haven't really tried it out, and you're operating about what you think it'll be, instead of speaking from experience.

wibble said:

When learning Dvorak, I did find at first that my right pinkie was becoming fatiqued, but this feeling disappeared after about a month. I attribute the initial discomfort to the fact that with the Sholes layout the right-hand little finger is under-utilised, and therefore required a period of exercise before becoming strong enough for the task. I do appreciate that for those who code unix and therefore need to type 'ls-l' frequently, it could be a problem - however, an easy solution would be to code this sequence as a separate hotkey.

In this case you are speaking from experience, and I'll take it into account.

wibble said:

I agree with you that 'lopsidedness' doesn't matter that much. But I have to take issue with your statement that you 'don't think anyone has mentioned it as a reason for switching to Colemak' - it's stated on your FAQ as 'wrongness' of the Dvorak layout. As far as I can see - please correct me if I'm wrong - the Colemak layout features approximately the same element of 'lopsidedness'. Isn't it therefore somewhat disingenuous to include this statement as a 'wrongness' feature of Dvorak?

Colemak, taking into account the backspace and enter key has an excellent hand balance, perhaps the right hand does marginally more work. If you add the space bar into the statistics, it becomes more lopsided, but not as bad as Dvorak.

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wibble said:
keyboard samurai said:

Dvorak's focus was to create a layout easy to learn for beginning touch typists.  After decades, 99%+ of touch typists out there are still learning Qwerty first. Colemak acknowledges the reality of this dominance.

I agree. And the thing I'm struggling with is how Colemak compares to Dvorak for those beginning touch typists. The hardest part of the task is to get people to agree to make a change... and having got that agreement, it is better to change to the best available rather than to a half-way house.

The problem is by focusing so much on Colemak vs. Dvorak, I think you are really just struggling with the idea that there is one best solution, one best layout.  There isn't.  There are far more variables than constraints and not everyone agrees with what the constraints should be to make an optimum layout.  All that can be really said is that both are much better than Qwerty by many metrics commonly used.  The problem is it is quite clear that many people will argue with and disagree with you forever on whether those metrics are meaningful when you can point to all those touch typists using Qwerty at over 60 WPM, over 80, over 100.  Just go here ( http://www.ryanheise.com/typing-test/ ) and look at the top 10 typists are all Qwerty going over 125 wpm.  After decades of advocacy, academic texts, Navy tests, etc. where is Dvorak layout ?   

I think that it is quite clear that Colemak is not the "half-way house" as you put it.  Colemak shows that you can get an optimal layout that compares favorably with Dvorak without the radical reorganization that Dvorak's layout demands. Part of the reason for that is in such a high dimensional solution space, there are lots nearly the same optimal solutions exist. 

As alternatives in the huge number of optimal solutions, both layouts have good arguments going for them for different reasons.  It's also clear neither is going to ever dislodge Qwerty.  All they can do is be universally available for those that would desire something other than Qwerty can use them. 

If you like Dvorak great.  There is no reason to switch to Colemak.
If someone likes Colemak great.  There is no reason to switch to Dvorak.
and for most touch typists, they simply are not even listening.



wibble said:
keyboard samurai said:

And for those of us with a boxer's break in our right hand causing the pinkie knuckle not to be where it should be because of a 18 degree kink in the metacarpal bone, Dvorak is pure hell!     (ok, I am martial artist, there are risks in punching people in the head really hard, hand anatomy isn't always up to it.)

I'm glad that you have found a keyboard layout that caters for your particular circumstances.

Perhaps the ideal solution would be to be able to analyze each individual and determine the particular layout that is optimum for each person. Dr. Dvorak himself pioneered this concept, by devising separate layouts for those who can only use one hand: current technology allows for the easy customisation of the layout, so that those whose fingers work with outboard rather than inboard stroke flow, and those who perhaps have lost digits could be accommodated with their own personalised layout.

People with the inclination are already doing that. Spending lots of time coming up with their own solutions or buying other peoples solutions.   Personalized layouts though don't have anything to do with Dvorak's standard layout.  The real point is barriers that Dvorak's layout poses to a Qwerty touch typist to making the transition.  For some like yourself, you got through the extra load on the right pinkie.  For others, it may have caused them to quit in the first week for all you know. Know one really knows.  What we do know is that Dvorak's layout despite being so easily available for many years is still rarely used compared to Qwerty and that's unlikely to change.

Attacking Colemak isn't going to help Dvorak be adopted.

Last edited by keyboard samurai (07-Jan-2008 20:31:27)
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Shai said:
wibble said:

Your assertion is misleading. It takes a smidgeon over twice as long to memorize a 10-digit number than a 5-digit one. The smidgeon arises from splitting the task into the memorization of two 5-digit numbers.

I changed the example, time yourself memorizing a 16 character random password (e.g. WLJc8Rs2MqwChYM1) and compare it with memorizing an 8 character password. (e.g. pK3QCfyT). I'll be surprised if it would take you a "smidgeon over twice as long to memorize", I expect it to take about 4 times longer.

I don't see the point in conducting this exercise, since memorising the following 8-character sequences will clearly each take roughly the same time:

1. WLJc8Rs2
2. MqwChYM1
3. pK3QCfyT

Note that concatenating sequences 1 and 2 above results in the 16-character sequence that you claim would take four times as long to memorise.

In fact, in my experience, it is relatively trivial to memorise a 4-character sequence. If I were to attempt this, I would therefore split the sequences down further:

1. WLJc
2. 8Rs2
3. MqwC
4. hYM1
5. pK3Q
6. CfyT

In order to test this I would take perhaps a half dozen people, time them each in their speed at memorising each of those six sequences. I would allocate one sequence a day, in order to ensure that boredom did not adversely affect the ability to learn the later sequences.

On the seventh day I would test them on their ability to regurgitate the first four sequences, and the final two. For those who succeeded at this task with 100% accuracy, I would average the total time they took to learn the first four (T1), and compare it with the average of the total time they took to learn the last two (T2).

I would be very surprised if T1 turned out to be very much more than double T2, and totally gobsmacked if it was as much as four times as long.

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keyboard samurai said:

As alternatives in the huge number of optimal solutions, both layouts have good arguments going for them for different reasons.  It's also clear neither is going to ever dislodge Qwerty.  All they can do is be universally available for those that would desire something other than Qwerty can use them.

The one thing that we are agreed on is that the Sholes layout is a disaster.

Colemak may or may not be better for those who already know the Sholes layout; it would be interesting to test this empirically.

My intention in starting this thread was not to attack Colemak.

My point is that when it comes to attempting to persuade those who have the power to influence national education policies that there is a significant benefit in considering a move away from QWERTY, it muddies the waters when there is so much confusion over what alternative is 'the best'.

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wibble said:

My point is that when it comes to attempting to persuade those who have the power to influence national education policies that there is a significant benefit in considering a move away from QWERTY, it muddies the waters when there is so much confusion over what alternative is 'the best'.

I think the waters were muddied long before Colemak appeared.  I wish you luck but I think that is a lost cause.  Touch typing is not exactly a hot topic in education policy.

quoting comments from one of many pro-Dvorak advocacy sites (where such comments pop up pretty often),

"As expected from testing this, the Dvörak is no better than the Qwerty keyboard. But that's to be expected, I'm left handed, the Dvörak is designed for wronghanded (righthanded) people; the claims of "superiority" are anecdotal at best, and closer to a myth. "

"Hmmm. I wasn't aware there was a debate over using a new system. If there is then I'm willing to jump in with my 2 cents. The metric system is proof that people don't want to learn anything new. Even when the new is far superior to the old. Superiority is lacking in this case however. The amount of space one has to move one's fingers is a piss-poor argument for changing the way many of us learned to type over a quarter of a century ago. You might use the same argument to prove an IV tube is better than a fork."

"most of me often used words seem to have shorter finger movements in QWERTY."

"Funny idea. But I never heard of the dvorak layout. I guess no one wants to learn another layout, but who knows ;)
"

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Shai said:

*About being lopsided: according to my statistics, it's more like 40%/60% for Dvorak, you can try it for yourself on the compare page (which doesn't take into account backspace and the space bar). If you take in to account the backspace key, enter key and the space bar, it becomes more like 33%/67%. See also the ryanheise.com typing test, and compare it visually for yourself. That said, I don't think it matters that much, and I don't think anyone has mentioned it as a reason for switching to Colemak.

It was one reason I chose to try Colemak rather than Dvorak - I'm left-handed and my left hand is noticeably more dextrous than my right (even after years of practising the piano). My objection to Dvorak is not just that the right hand fingers get a bit more use than the left, but that the right hand fingers have to *move off the home keys* more than the left, so it favours right-hand dextrousness. I don't have any data on that, but it *appears* fairly clear from the layout.

Shai - any chance of modifying https://colemak.com/Compare to show Distance separately for left and right hands? I'd certainly find it interesting.

I had other reasons for preferring Colemak over Dvorak too - mainly that Dvorak's design principle of maximising hand alternation didn't make much sense to me (based on my experience of playing the piano), and that Colemak keeps the Ctrl-Z/X/C/V shortcuts easy to use with the left hand while mousing with the right.

Last edited by onestop (08-Jan-2008 23:30:03)
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onestop said:

My objection to Dvorak is not just that the right hand fingers get a bit more use than the left, but that the right hand fingers have to *move off the home keys* more than the left, so it favours right-hand dextrousness. I don't have any data on that, but it *appears* fairly clear from the layout.

Here's some data for you: check out the video clip - made by Dr. Dvorak himself - embedded in http://uk.four.ebid.net/perl/auction.cg … mo=auction . Skip to about 5 minutes in: there's a visual comparison of a QWERTY typist (on the left) with a Dvorak typist (on the right). It's obvious from watching this, that what you say is true: the Dvorak layout demands more dextrousness of the right hand compared with the left. This was by design of course: Dr. Dvorak intentionally chose to optimise the layout with a right-handed bias, and I for one don't blame him for that; when trying to come up with a 'one-size-fits-all' configuration, it does make sense to try to cater to the majority.

It's also obvious from watching this clip that both hands have to do far less work on a Dvorak than on QWERTY.

What would be really interesting would be to see a similar comparison QWERTY-Dvorak-Colemak :)

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In case you missed it above, the RyanHeise typing test has a replay feature which simulates the finger movement on the different layouts.

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wibble said:

Here's some data for you: check out the video clip - made by Dr. Dvorak himself - embedded in http://uk.four.ebid.net/perl/auction.cg … mo=auction . Skip to about 5 minutes in: there's a visual comparison of a QWERTY typist (on the left) with a Dvorak typist (on the right). It's obvious from watching this, that what you say is true: the Dvorak layout demands more dextrousness of the right hand compared with the left.

Many thanks for the link wibble. What an fascinating old film! It's posted on YouTube (along with a second film which is more about the theory and statistics behind Dvorak). From the dates in the films I think they must have been made around 1942, although they feel earlier as they're silent and the quality isn't great (nice use of split-screen though!).

wibble said:

This was by design of course: Dr. Dvorak intentionally chose to optimise the layout with a right-handed bias, and I for one don't blame him for that; when trying to come up with a 'one-size-fits-all' configuration, it does make sense to try to cater to the majority.

Right-handers aren't such an overwhelming majority as they were in Dr D's time. The prevalence of left-handedness has increased quite a bit since then, particularly among younger people. (I'm pretty sure there's also a correlation between left-handedness and the sort of computer nerdish personality that finds alternative keyboard layouts interesting!)

I agree that the first film does indeed show pretty clearly that Dvorak requires the right hand to move around more than the left. Shai - i've tried looking at this using RyanHeise's typing test but it seems much less clear somehow than when watching film of real hands. I'd still like to see some statistics of finger-distance or row-use for each hand (but then I am a statistician...).

To return to wibble's earlier point about education policy:

wibble said:

My point is that when it comes to attempting to persuade those who have the power to influence national education policies that there is a significant benefit in considering a move away from QWERTY, it muddies the waters when there is so much confusion over what alternative is 'the best'.

As a left-hander I'd strongly oppose left-handed kids in state schools being taught a keyboard layout that favours right-handers. Left-handed kids already face a substantial and (in a left-to-right writing system) unavoidable disadvantage with pen-and-paper writing without compounded it by avoidable discrimination when they learn to type. So the policy should either be to introduce a roughly hand-neutral layout (such as Colemak) or to allow a choice of left- or right-handed versions of a 'handed' layout (such as Dvorak). Personally, I'd favour the former as I think the latter would introduce unnecessary complication and could get confusing for both pupils and teachers.

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"In fact, in my experience, it is relatively trivial to memorise a 4-character sequence. If I were to attempt this, I would therefore split the sequences down further:

1. WLJc
2. 8Rs2
3. MqwC
4. hYM1
5. pK3Q
6. CfyT"

That's the silliest logic I've ever heard.

"I can memorize 2 digits in a split-second. That means I can memorize 4 digits in a half-second. That means I can memorize 8 digits in about a second. That means I can memorize 16 digits in about 2 seconds. That means I can memorize 32 digits in about 4 seconds. That means I can memorize 64 digits in about 8 seconds. That means I can memorize 128 digits in about 16 seconds. That means I can memorize 256 digits in about 32 seconds. That means I can memorize the first 500 digits of pi in under a minute!"

Good luck with that.

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onestop said:
wibble said:

This was by design of course: Dr. Dvorak intentionally chose to optimise the layout with a right-handed bias, and I for one don't blame him for that; when trying to come up with a 'one-size-fits-all' configuration, it does make sense to try to cater to the majority.

Right-handers aren't such an overwhelming majority as they were in Dr D's time. The prevalence of left-handedness has increased quite a bit since then, particularly among younger people.

Although I agree that left-handedness in the population (of the Western world at least) has apparently risen in the last century (probably due to a relaxation of the insistence that left-handers write with their right hand), the incidence is still only about 10% (as indicated by your Wikipedia link) - right-handers DO make up the vast majority.

onestop said:

To return to wibble's earlier point about education policy:

wibble said:

My point is that when it comes to attempting to persuade those who have the power to influence national education policies that there is a significant benefit in considering a move away from QWERTY, it muddies the waters when there is so much confusion over what alternative is 'the best'.

As a left-hander I'd strongly oppose left-handed kids in state schools being taught a keyboard layout that favours right-handers. Left-handed kids already face a substantial and (in a left-to-right writing system) unavoidable disadvantage with pen-and-paper writing without compounded it by avoidable discrimination when they learn to type. So the policy should either be to introduce a roughly hand-neutral layout (such as Colemak) or to allow a choice of left- or right-handed versions of a 'handed' layout (such as Dvorak). Personally, I'd favour the former as I think the latter would introduce unnecessary complication and could get confusing for both pupils and teachers.

The point, surely, is that it would be vastly preferable to encourage ANY ergonomically-designed layout in preference to the madness of continuing to force both left- and right- handed youngsters to learn the NON-ergonomic QWERTY layout, which is the current situation.

When it comes to the question of which is better overall, both Dvorak and Colemak appear to be similar, with little to choose between them other than the assertion that Colemak is easier to learn if you already know QWERTY; although IMO more empirical, and less anecdotal evidence is required. If true, then it could be argued that Colemak wins out over Dvorak because those who would have to be retrained to teach the youngsters would be more easily retrained. However, the infamous 1944 US Navy study has already proven that learning the Dvorak layout is a trivial investment: something similar proving that the Colemak layout is substantially more easy to learn, both for existing typists and newcomers to the keyboard, would be needed for it to be a contender.

I agree with you completely that it would be confusing for all to suggest more than a single layout. Indeed, that is why we are here today: too few people see anything wrong with the Sholes layout.

Ultimately, the people who need to be least confused of all about the issues are those in a position to promote a move AWAY from QWERTY.

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wibble said:

When it comes to the question of which is better overall, both Dvorak and Colemak appear to be similar, with little to choose between them other than the assertion that Colemak is easier to learn if you already know QWERTY; although IMO more empirical, and less anecdotal evidence is required. If true, then it could be argued that Colemak wins out over Dvorak because those who would have to be retrained to teach the youngsters would be more easily retrained. However, the infamous 1944 US Navy study has already proven that learning the Dvorak layout is a trivial investment: something similar proving that the Colemak layout is substantially more easy to learn, both for existing typists and newcomers to the keyboard, would be needed for it to be a contender.

I agree with you that in a professional environment, that is in the case of a professional teacher being told you have to be retrained and now teach Dvorak, the investment would seem to be trivial.  That's not the case we find ourselves in 60+ years after the Navy study.  The situation in choosing Colemak or Dvorak is completely voluntary and there are downsides to learning an alternative layout because of the universality of Qwerty hardware and software.  In an environment like we have even small subjective things can make the difference to someone who is going against the flow.  Colemak does not  look so radically different from Qwerty. It get's a lot of gains even with for the touch typist having keys in the same place or a related space to Qwerty.  Some of this subjective stuff can be reassuring.  Maybe it takes someone just a few days less to get to a competent speed and that's not really significant when viewed on the scale of a lifetime but it's just enough to get someone over that hump and on to different path despite going against the flow.  Given the way things are there is a lot to like about Colemak including because of some choices made is cross language international appeal.  Both layouts are rational and as such there are always going to be people that learn either layout in a snap.  For the rest, when it's voluntary, you need everything possible to make it as easy as possible to switch. 

As a disclaimer, I am a lefty also.  Until this thread and watching those movies, I hadn't realized the right handed bias of Dvorak and perhaps that is another reason I did not have a good experience trying to learn it.  In the tech industry they talk a lot about the influence of early adopters.  Maybe lefties already used to living against the flow are ready to be early adopters here and Colemak has by being nearly neutral found a hook not open to the righty Dvorak.  We may be a minority but a receptive minority can be a powerful thing in attempting a paradigm shift.

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keyboard samurai said:

Just go here ( http://www.ryanheise.com/typing-test/ ) and look at the top 10 typists are all Qwerty going over 125 wpm.  After decades of advocacy, academic texts, Navy tests, etc. where is Dvorak layout ?

They are beginning to arrive, so I would give it some time:

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2 … topic=3973

| Topic: Promote Dvorak by testing your typing speed on-line!
| Colin Reynolds (no network) wrote on Jan 9, 2008 at 6:25 AM.
|
| http://www.ryanheise.com/typing-test/
|
| This currently has qwerty typists as the high-scorers, with the
| record at 149wpm, and the closest Dvorak contender so far
| at 112wpm.
| [...]

The 112wpm person is Shotaro "Macky" Makisumi (a well-known Rubik's Cube master). His webpage about Dvorak is here:

http://cubefreak.net/dvorak.html

And his records:

http://www.ryanheise.com/typing-test/re … o+Makisumi
http://www.ryanheise.com/cube/record.cg … o+Makisumi


Sadly, my own 126wpm Colemak record is no longer competitive enough with the current top QWERTY people. Wow :-)

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>About being lopsided: according to my statistics, it's more like 40%/60% for Dvorak, you can try it for yourself on the compare page (which doesn't take into account backspace and the space bar). If you take in to account the backspace key, enter key and the space bar, it becomes more like 33%/67%. See also the ryanheise.com typing test, and compare it visually for yourself. That said, I don't think it matters that much, and I don't think anyone has mentioned it as a reason for switching to Colemak.

Where did you get your statistics? For letter frequency, I use either the Wikipedia page on letter frequency or an analysis of a bunch of my own documents (138 pages worth). I find that my documents are about 5% off from the Wikipedia page, mostly in the mid range of c to b (cumwfgypb according to Wikipedia, ucmygwfpb according to me). But that's not the important part. The important part is, using my data, which was more precise–not as accurate, but more precise, I found that Dvorak is about 46%/54%. Taking into account delete/tab/return etc., for me it's probably about 42%/58%.

About ease of memorization, I find that if a string of digits are longer than 4, I break it up: 5 becomes 2-3, , 6 becomes 3-3, 7 becomes 3-4, 8 becomes 4-4. Longer than 8 becomes increasingly difficult to hold in short term memory. A lot of this is about short term memory length. If it's 7 digits, you can read it once and say it to yourself over and over until you know it. If it's 10 digits, which is only 3 more, you have to keep looking back at what you're reading the digits from to memorize them, because people find it a lot harder to hold 10 digits in their head at once. I'm not saying nobody can, but not many people can.

Last edited by SpeedMorph (09-Mar-2008 03:44:21)
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About left-handed bias on the Dvorak:

I recently read the original patent by Dvorak and Dealey (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2040248.pdf) and it says there:

"For left-handed persons it may be preferable to reverse the keyboard, but this is to be understood as to be within the limits of our invention."

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keyboard samurai said:

The problem is it is quite clear that many people will argue with and disagree with you forever on whether those metrics are meaningful when you can point to all those touch typists using Qwerty at over 60 WPM, over 80, over 100.  Just go here ( http://www.ryanheise.com/typing-test/ ) and look at the top 10 typists are all Qwerty going over 125 wpm.  After decades of advocacy, academic texts, Navy tests, etc. where is Dvorak layout ?

That is true. But you'll notice that of the top 10, 1 is Colemak and 1 is Dvorak. MAYBE 1% of all people use Dvorak or Colemak, yet they make up 20% of the top 10. That means they are overrepresented in the high scores by 2000%. Plus the world's fastest typist used Dvorak.

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