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How hard is it to master Colemak without totally losing qwerty skills?

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I'm in progress of learning Colemak.  I'm at the end of my first week.  I only had enough time for about 30 minutes to an hour of training per day.  I would have liked more, but there's only 24 hours in a day.  So after my first week I'm averaging about 22wpm in Colemak.  Compared to my QWERTY speed of 85wpm average.  Although I feel like I'm faster than that, but I consistently get that score in every test...

Anyway, my big concern is losing all my QWERTY skills.  I've read a lot of posts on here that some people can't do QWERTY anymore at anywhere near their old pace.  I do a lot of tech support, which means I sit down at a lot of other people computers, and I can't really go around installing new keyboard layouts on all of them.

Is it possible to be a pro at both?  Or if I try, am I just dooming myself to become a jack of all layouts but master of none?

If it is possible, what is the best way to go about it, that will hopefully not extending my Colemak learning period by too much?

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Keeping multiple layouts put unnecessary heavy strain on your brain and muscles. Similar to drawing circle in one hand and drawing square in another.

Luckily, there is a solution for your concern. For working at Qwerty computer, you can use colemak.exe. Just run it and you can type Colemak without installing anything.

http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak.exe

Last edited by Tony_VN (26-Jan-2013 13:17:39)
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Tony, don't say things too bastantly. If you're interested you may maintain two layouts without too much trouble. People just tend to let QWERTY slip because they're not interested in it anymore, I believe. Yes, it takes extra effort to maintain two layouts but it's entirely doable.

Check out Ryan Heise's Colemak learning experience for instance.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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DreymaR said:

Ah, that gives me a lot of hope!  Thanks!

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It should work, especially as I assume you won't need to maintain 85 wpm on Qwerty?

I still type Qwerty occasionally. and I'm always surprised by how well it still works.

Just make sure you don't mix both on the same computer.  But Colemak on your PC and Qwerty elsewhere, that your mind can handle.

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I've been researching this myself because I plan on doing something similar (learn and get decent at both Dvorak and Colemak).  Not many places had real experiences I was looking for--probably the most useful I saw was several of the comments in the following Slashdot article:

http://ask.slashdot.org/story/05/07/10/ … and-dvorak

That's for QWERTY + Dvorak users, but if a layout combination that different is possible to remember and easily switch back and forth mentally at will, then surely it can apply to two similar layouts possibly even easier (fewer different keys to mix up and practice on).  It seems that most people recommend learning the other layout and using it exclusively until you know it well enough to type it properly, and then get re-acquainted and back up to speed with your old layout.

Some might argue that this is unnecessary with Colemak's similarity to QWERTY, but I'd say it could still be beneficial; you will probably go through less confusion and learn the layout faster (and better) if you don't keep typing your known layout while trying to learn another.  The disadvantage would be requiring a few weeks to a month of time to learning a new layout, then finally re-learning the original (which should still be somewhat fresh somewhere in your mind, you'll just have to dig it back up)... during which time your typing skills will probably go from abysmal to barely even tolerable.

BUT... Like I said, I'm just researching this myself, I don't yet have any actual experience.  I learned Dvorak well enough by three or four weeks that I could have recalled my QWERTY ability by then, and that is what I originally planned to do.  The problem is, Dvorak just felt so good by comparison I didn't care, and because Dvorak is available as a secondary layout on pretty much every computer out there, I decided to just focus on Dvorak exclusively and eventually continue on with my plans of other layouts.  I made absolutely no attempt to preserve my QWERTY skills when the time came, and I could probably still dig them up (hasn't been that long--maybe 1 ½ months) if I really wanted to, but I still don't want to.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (26-Jan-2013 20:00:23)
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It should prove an interesting experiment! You'll still have some QWERTY knowledge, and on top of that two more layouts. I found it confusing to wrangle three layouts at the same time, and quickly lost my Dvorak skills when moving to Colemak as I recall it, while the QWERTY remained largely unaffected by the whole process.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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Well, for what it's worth, after a bit of trial and error and a few retries, I managed to type "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" in QWERTY with very few mistakes (each one correctable with a bit more thinking and no looking down).  It was pretty slow, but I did it--and I most definitely could *not* do that very easily (or as fast) on my first week and a half or even two weeks of Dvorak (too much confusion...)!  So it is clearly still there--and honestly, it seems as if just remembering the problem keys (there aren't many) to prevent mistakes and then getting back to speed shouldn't be too hard.  Surely more problem keys will pop up here and there in real typing--that's inevitable, but they'll go away with time.

It was relatively easy and effortless.  It seemed to take the longest for me to think about and remember the V key's location for some reason and I mix the T/Y keys up frequently (did that at the beginning of Dvorak too due to their locations).  There are a few other problem keys (D, G, B, N, sometimes Z...), but those seem to be the biggest.  In actual typing, I may need to use a picture or look down at the keyboard as a guide at first, but even so I have a feeling it would all come back very quickly as I get the feel again for common letter sequences, and even then it still seems to be a bit faster than I was on my first week of Dvorak.

I'm just not so sure that layout is worthy at this point... but that little exercise had some nicely reassuring and interesting results.  If I wanted, I could probably be back to a decent speed in a very short amount of time, and not lose Dvorak (or even touch the skills I've built up for it).  Needless to say, though, I am typing this post on Dvorak, and much faster than I did that pangram in QWERTY.  Maybe I will consider getting up to a decent QWERTY speed (35-40 WPM) for when absolutely required and for nostalgia purposes (ie. running FreeDOS in either DOSEmu or a virtual machine, or playing classic PC games in DOSBox), with the secondary benefit of using other computers very briefly or when unable to switch layouts.  It would also provide a third benefit of keeping Colemak's and QGMLWB's symbol and punctuation keys in memory, and--even better--also make learning Colemak in the first place much easier.  Hmmm... very tempting, actually. :)

So, there you go... it seems that what you "forget" can in fact easily be dug back up and re-practiced with minimal trouble, and with nowhere near the amount of confusion created by learning a new layout.  They do also seem easily switchable in my mind.  The major confusion seems to be typing in Dvorak, as I intend to, while forgetting to switch layouts in the operating system (or the exact reverse; typing in QWERTY as intended when forgetting to switch the computer to it).  Now I'm just wondering whether I should bother fully re-acquiring my QWERTY abilities or not... it's actually kind of tempting, even if I have no intention of typing at my original speeds in it; I would rather use a more comfortable layout for higher speeds.  It would also make typing "loadkeys dvorak" easier in Finnix and other Linux system rescue and maintenence CDs, which are of course all QWERTY by default.

Keep in mind, though, that Colemak has far fewer changed keys to remember, so you can likely get back up to speed after using it even faster.

Update: This seems to work so well, in fact, that it even brings back my old QWERTY bad habits and cheats that I tried to (and did) eliminate when I learned Dvorak, but they only affect me when I'm using QWERTY.  I would probably try to "unlearn" those if possible before increasing my speed.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (27-Jan-2013 00:42:58)
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I was fearful about swapping layouts for similar reasons.

It can be a drag when you jump onto a machine that hasn't your layout set up.  If it were easier to switch layout than this wouldn't be so much an issue.  But for those times that you don't have your layout at hand,  being able to touch type Qwerty would be useful.

I chose Dvorak partly because I perceived it to be more accessible (it has cross platform support accross Linux, Windows and OSX) for exactly those times I was computer hopping.  It would be more difficult with a more esoteric layout.  And actually changing layouts on those platforms is not exactly clear cut or consistant.

If you are hopping onto someone else's machine, then you'll need them to be understanding, and accomodating to your layout.  Apple make layout switching to Dvorak pretty easy under OSX.  For me it's far easier quickly adding Dvorak as an available layout than trying to work with Qwerty.  However I find soe people aren't very accomodating and can actually be quite rude about my layout choice (I try to keep my layout choice low profile).  One such example I've discovered is that Command + Space the shortcut used to switch layouts under OSX clashes with both Photoshop and Spotlight keyboard shortcuts.  That can be quite annoying for those that use them and subsequently (or temporarily) loose them.  Perhaps that's an example of Apple not thinking something through properly, but it further raises the barriers and alienates those of us that are not using the standard layout.

Whenever I am faced with Qwerty I can appear a bumbling idiot without much keyboard command.

I never could touch type Qwerty.   There is still a ghost of it buried in me.  I surprise myself that I can almost touch type with it, without much practice.  I can almost do it, though I'm slow.  If there isn't much typing to do than I can get by with a little hunt and peck; but it's irritating.

Last edited by pinkyache (30-Jul-2013 13:55:07)

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That's one thing I like with Colemak you know - less irritation in situations like those! ;)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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That's why I champion accessibiliy of alternative layouts  If OSs/devices made it trivial to swap layout, then it wouldn't be as much a problem.  That's where the trouble lies in my mind, not XYZ layout.

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Yep... I'm with pinkyache on this one.  Operating systems should strive to make switching the layouts as simple and quick as possible.  Both for the logged-in user and system-wide (ie. the log-in screen).

With my trial, Windows 8 failed miserably at the log-in screen; it seemed that the only way to get it off QWERTY from my searching was some obscure registry hack.  Changing it for the current user was slightly better, in that once your preferred keyboards are set up an icon appears in the system tray to easily switch between them.  The problem with this is that you have to first go through the control panel to set all this stuff up in the first place--on every machine--and ever since Vista, the control panel has been an illogical, convoluted mess (even when switched to "classic" large icons view).

With Linux, well, it varies by distribution, but KDE4's process of changing the user's keyboard is similar to the way Windows does it, but IMO much cleaner and easier to navigate.  I am currently running openSUSE, and the most annoying part was changing the system-wide/log-in layout.  It's somewhere in YaST where you'd expect it, but not exactly easy to find.

I have PC-BSD installed also, and because it uses KDE by default its per-user keyboard layout setup is the same as openSUSE, but I was unable to get the login screen layout changed from QWERTY at all in the time I tried.

In every single one of these operating systems, there is no way to switch the keyboard layout directly on the log-in screen.  While this can be viewed as a "feature" to keep people off your computer and is not needed for anyone who only uses one layout (ie. the QWERTY masses), it should at least be possible to easily set up if needed.

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UltraZelda64 said:

In every single one of these operating systems, there is no way to switch the keyboard layout directly on the log-in screen.  While this can be viewed as a "feature" to keep people off your computer and is not needed for anyone who only uses one layout (ie. the QWERTY masses), it should at least be possible to easily set up if needed.

Is there really a need for that?  Typically, people will setup their keyboard layout at installation time, and that will be it, for once and for all, and for all users of that computer.  Us layout geeks are such a small target audience that it will never be worth the extra complexity for the OS vendors.

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True. Sadly true...

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ghen said:

Is there really a need for that?  Typically, people will setup their keyboard layout at installation time, and that will be it, for once and for all, and for all users of that computer.  Us layout geeks are such a small target audience that it will never be worth the extra complexity for the OS vendors.

I would say so.  If it can be done--like having alternate software keymaps in the first place--then why not?  What good is a computer if someone cannot even log on?  That's the definition of a very poor user interface, and considering the keyboard has been the primary input device since the beginning pretty much, it should not be overlooked.  Why have hundreds of keyboard layouts available in the first place if you can't easily use them at any time you need them?

As the owner of a computer and a user of the Dvorak layout, it's nice to have the ability to set Dvorak as the default so I can properly type things like my username and password (and more importantly, the root password) during the OS installation and it automatically sets the login and default user keymap of the installed system to Dvorak as well.  But if I want to add an account for another person who only knows the standard U.S. layout, should I really have to be there to type their password just to log in for them every time because a simple switch on the login screen was overlooked?  The switch doesn't even have to have all layouts... that would be crazy (way too much clutter, potential confusion)... it would only need the ones used on the machine, which as I mentioned, should be an easily-accessible system-wide setting for the root user to access.

If I am able to choose what keyboard layout I want to use to enter my password and unlock the screen (and I can), then it makes sense that it should be possible to choose a layout to log in as well.

The "extra complexity" argument doesn't apply; there is no excuse.  Microsoft and Apple are making a killing out of operating systems (and Apple, complete systems) that are supposed to work for us, and if they can't even get basic accessibility right--with, of all things, the keyboard--then they have failed miserably.  Once the feature is implemented and a bit of testing is done, it's basically done.  They add all kinds of things anyone in the right mind wouldn't want anything to do with all the time when it benefits them and yet we have to pay (DRM, WGA, "app" stores, etc.).  No idea how well Mac OS X does it, but as I said Windows fails miserably.

Edit: Oops. Made a pretty big quoting mistake. Fixed.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (27-Jan-2013 22:57:17)
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I switch back and forth two layouts when I write document in Korean: Sebul for Korean, Colemak for English.  It takes more time and energy to have equal speed and accuracy of multiple layouts.

My typing speed for Korean is about 40 wpm, English in Colemak is average 70 wpm in normal pace. I like where I am at.

I lost touch typing skill of Qwerty since I became full-time Colemak user. Good thing is I can type slowly on other people's computers seeing keys. Others can't type on my computer.  My keyboard's key caps are Qwerty layout.

I use Debian Linux. I had to do extra work for making Colemak as default layout. I totally agree about layout selection feature during login. It will remove the complication of mixing multiple layout in computer.

Last edited by penguin (28-Jan-2013 00:32:53)

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You can set password full of common keys, qwahzxcvbm, and numbers

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I, btw, sometimes make passwords that make sense on one layout, but written on another: like "password" typed on Qwerty, pressing the Colemak keys → "raddw;sg". True, you might have to learn to type it differently on different layouts, but that's one way to take multiple layouts skills to practice.

Just saying, maybe it'll give someone ideas.

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That's actually an interesting work-around, but unfortunately it still doesn't solve the operating systems' core flaw.  The problem still exists.  It's a clever hack, though.  On the bright side, I guess it could potentially eliminate remote dictionary attacks at least for people who are for whatever reason not protected by NAT or some other kind of software or hardware firewall and are running an insecure or compromised operating system [*cough* Windows *cough*].

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (28-Jan-2013 07:44:41)
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I use a Kineses keyboard for colemak at work, and standard qwerty keyboards and laptops everywhere else, so it feels very different. I think having different keyboards uses different muscle memory for each layout. I don't notice ANY conflict or decrease in my qwerty speed, at all.

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I'm with innovine. But then again, the kinesis is not just different, it's really different. And of course, I never touch typed QWERTY.

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I can confirm that I can switch layouts at the login screen under Windows 8 (with no registry hacks). *

For those that don't get the need to switch layout at login, you don't grok accessibility.

As I've said before, Tony's password hack is just that: a hack.

Don't any of you share your computers?

* Update

You don't get presented with an alternative layout at login, until you setup the layout under the user account.

On our Windows 8 machine, I have Qwerty and Dvorak setup, with Qwerty as the default layout.  It's a shared PC.  We could use multiple user accounts (and this works quite nicely too under Windows 8), but we don't as it gets cumbersome adding and configuring multiple accounts across PCs: setting up layouts, setting up browser plugins etc.

To switch layouts, I use Windows + Space (which is what I was used to under OSX), and Windows now lets you switch to your alternative layout globally across application windows (in the past the secondary layout would be window/application specific (and I even had an issue where I had to switch the layout multiple times within Internet Explorer one day!)  Switching to another application might need another layout switch.  Your brain can end up in knots. I can understand the need for having different layouts in different windows/applications: you might have your native browser selected in a web browser, with a foreign language selected in say a word processor. 

I do have to switch layout at the login screen, and then switch layout once I've logged in (yawn).  That's slightly cumbersome - but it's somewhat of an improvement!  (I really should setup automatic login...)

My keyboard switching tray app sometimes corrupts under Linux/Debian/Xfce, which is pretty rotten.  I used to be able to say to the lady friend, just hit such and such shortcut to switch.  I don't wish to confuse her.  In fact I try my best to just use Dvorak without really alerting anyone to it if I can.  Having a visual notifier/reminder of your layout is very useful for the times you have got an alternative selected.

To cut a long story short: switching and setting up alternative layouts under different OSs is not always easy or intuitive (it's a mine field).  That's enough to put you off of trying an alternative layout and/or letting go of Qwerty.

I don't see why you couldn't have a pool of layouts available at login time, the layout definitions can't be that large.

Last edited by pinkyache (24-Jul-2013 10:15:29)

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I don't think that different keyboards use different muscle memory! That doesn't sound right at all for me, at least.

I do believe that you can train yourself to treating different typing situations as "Gestalts". Then it'll be easier to relate to some keyboards belonging to certain layouts, like Innovine experiences. Smaller differences are probably easier to handle than larger ones. During my extensive experiments with using Wide/Angle mods, that has been my experience.

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DreymaR said:

I don't think that different keyboards use different muscle memory! That doesn't sound right at all for me, at least.

It's quite possible that the reason I have no problem switching between Colemak and QWERTY is that I'm not touch typing the latter. That is, I touch type Colemak on the kinesis, whereas I type ad hoc on standard keyboards.

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pinkyache said:

I can confirm that I can switch layouts at the login screen under Windows 8 (with no registry hacks).

Weird, apparently my memory is wrong then; maybe I'm confusing it with another Windows version (Windows 7 maybe? Vista?).  I remember having to dig into the registry for very something basic relating to regional settings... maybe it was to get the OS to get the time right with the system clock set to UTC.  I'm not really surprised that my memory was wrong, because in my few weeks with the Windows 8 Enterprise evaluation copy, the system was a trainwreck... nothing seemed right.  I haven't been a Windows user myself (on my own machines) since I jumped ship from the already aging XP back in 2006, just in time for Vista.  Anyway, I stand corrected.

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