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    Thumb modifiers, Kinesis?

    • Started by innovine
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    • Registered: 24-Feb-2011
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    Hey,
    I've been using a Typematrix with a Colemak layout for over a year, and am very happy with the grid layout and the colemak mapping. I still have a few issues though:

    As a programmer, I use a lot of symbols and have a lot of combos that don't come up in English corpus (for example, "();" and ") {" are pretty common in c++ )
    In an informal attempt to improve the situation I implemented thumb-activated modifiers, and placed the symbols on and near the home row. In addition, when the modifier is pressed, the colemak neui keys work as arrow keys, which is a wonderful idea by the way!!

    I notice however that the thumb buttons (each side of the spacebar) on the Typematrix are located more or less under the base of my index finger, so I need to curl my thumb inwards to reach it. This is producing a lot of stress on my thumbs and they feel a bit sore and tired by the end of the day.

    I'm now thinking of the Kinesis (the typematrix requires a lot of force to activate the keys, so I think Kinesis is lighter all round) but I cannot possibly live without thumb buttons anymore :)  Can a Kinesis owner confirm to me that having the thumbs in regular action does not get tiring or cause any stress? I hope that having them placed away from the hand eliminates the trouble I have with the Typematrix. I'm considering using the Kinesis Delete as my special modifier.

    Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! If anyone else is using thumb modifiers to activate symbols then I'd like to hear about that too!

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I use the CapsLock (it's actually quite easy!) and AltGr. I think it helps a lot to use the Wide mod so that the thumb reaches the AltGr more easily. Of course, some keyboards have these extra long space bars and I hate that. My right-hand thumb rests just one half key breadth in on the space bar, which is the way I like it.

    I know, I use the normal-type keyboards but I hope these observations are relevant nevertheless.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    I don't use a wide mod on the Typematrix as I can't reach the center Enter and Backspace keys with the wide-modded hand. The Typematrix is in general better suited for a wide mod with the right hand, (8 columns on the right side, and only 6 on the left), but unfortuately the right hand is the one I use to reach the center keys and I tend to use the left thumb for the modifier key. Wide modding the left hand is not so nice due to the vertical shift key (a and z are the same key then) and not having anything further out to the left, but I actually might try this just to see.

    Still, I am most curious about the degree of stress on the thumbs with Kinesis, especially if using it as a modifier (chording with the same hand).

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    • From: California Coastal Living!
    • Registered: 24-Aug-2009
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    Colemak on Kinesis for several years now.

    Stress on the thumbs? I don't notice at all, nor have I ever heard of that except with a couple RSI people that have some severe issues. On the Kinesis the thumbs are over a couple of the keys already so there's virtually no movement...hence little stress on the thumbs.

    I know and have read about several people that have made modifiers on the thumbs, seems popular with programmers.

    An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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    • Registered: 19-May-2012
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    I also use Colemak on a Kinesis, and no problems at all. I do a lot of C# programming. I remapped the delete thumb button to be esc (for vim), I also used macros to make the [ be a { and ] to be a }   and vice versa - typing a { types a [ for me. I did this so that I don't need to use the shift key when putting the curly braces in my code since they happen wayy more than arrays with the [] syntax... :) For more info on my re-mappings, see this blog post: https://www.gregd.org/2012/10/kinesis-a … remapping/

    I also own a typematrix - I use it on my work laptop.... it's nice and very portable, but I like my Kinesis (which is attached to my desktop computer) even more! I think the thumb position is MUCH better on the kinesis, and haven't had any trouble with stress on my thumbs...

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    wonderful to hear, thanks!

    Dietsche: are you using the arrow keys in the default position?  One thing I love about my current typematrix layout is that when I hold the thumb modifier, the nuei keys work as arrows. I got this idea from the vim colemak mappings, but now I can use those keys as arrows in all applications. How do you navigate in vim, with the arrows, or with nuei and similar?

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    I use a pretty vanilla vim setup (I have a number of customizations, but nothing related directly to colemak), and have kept the default mappings for the arrow keys. I usually use the hjkl keys on my kinesis, but do find myself using the physical arrow keys from time to time - whatever happens to feel more comfortable. On other keyboards (typematrix included) I use the default vim mappings and it works well enough for me. this was a conscious decision because I didn't want to have to copy my vimrc to new computers/servers in order to be able to use vim.

    I didn't know that you could set up the typematrix to have arrow keys on the hnei keys... how did you do that? I may have to experiment with my kinesis and see if I can come up with something similar... overall, I think vim is better with the colemak layout than in qwerty. even though you loose the hjkl navigation, you get 'n' for searches 'i' for insert and 'o' for a new line all on the home row - which I think is nice.

    Last edited by dietsche (02-Oct-2012 20:40:29)
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    I got my kinesis now, and am liking it so far. I'll post a review soon.

    Regarding the arrow keys on the typematrix, I did a LOT of experimenting with remapping using xkb. It's not the typematrix doing it. I forget the exact details (i do have the xkb configs) but I basically remapped the keys to the immediate left and right of the spacebar so they activated the 'Third Level Modifier', and then created a keyboard mapping where the third layer contained arrow keys and all the symbols I wanted. This worked suprisingly well, but the thumbs get rather stressed with heavy uses. This due to the physical layout of the typematrix. Having now switched to the kinesis and remapped the letters to colemak on the kinesis, i find that the old third layer modifier mappings still work fine, and Im currently testing out using the delete key for activating the modifier map. I do think ill be doing some more remapping on the kinesis in a bit, i'm just trying to get used to it at the moment though.

    Last edited by innovine (04-Oct-2012 10:41:27)
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    An update...
    Two months of using the Kinesis and I quite like it. It feels super slick and the thumb buttons are everything I hoped for. Unfortunately I am experiencing quite a bit of pain in my right thumb (Enter and Space). I have been doing an unusually heavy amount of programming during these months though. The pains in my fingers and back of my hands has completely gone, so I am very pleased with that. I am trying to not bottom out the Kinesis keys but its a lot more difficult than I thought, especially with the thumbs and modifier keys.
    For programming, I am still a bit undecided, but for writing emails and plain text, I am totally in love with Colemak on Kinesis

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    davkol said:

    I use AltGr for diacritic/typography (on my Colemak.CZ). As long as it's under < or M, I'm fine.

    BTW check the ErgoDox.

    What's the status of the Ergodox project?   It looks promising.

    Last edited by pinkyache (18-Jan-2013 20:01:15)

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    • From: California Coastal Living!
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    innovine said:

    An update...
    Two months of using the Kinesis and I quite like it. It feels super slick and the thumb buttons are everything I hoped for. Unfortunately I am experiencing quite a bit of pain in my right thumb (Enter and Space). I have been doing an unusually heavy amount of programming during these months though. The pains in my fingers and back of my hands has completely gone, so I am very pleased with that. I am trying to not bottom out the Kinesis keys but its a lot more difficult than I thought, especially with the thumbs and modifier keys.
    For programming, I am still a bit undecided, but for writing emails and plain text, I am totally in love with Colemak on Kinesis

    Great to hear!
    You may want to do the O-ring mod (cost $5-$15), that will help with bottoming out by cushioning the landing, and will reduce the amount of travel from 4mm to about 2.5mm (don't worry, the switch registers the keystroke at 2mm).

    Another idea is to put Enter under one thumb and Space under the other thumb. Maybe could remap one of them to the Delete key.

    Last edited by Input Nirvana (02-Jun-2013 08:29:21)

    An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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