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    Sore Wrists After Switching From Dvorak

    • Started by silentq
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    Hello All,

    I have been typing with Dvorak for about a year now and was at a respectable 65wpm.  It was my first touch-typing experience as I was always a hunt-and-peck qwerty typist before that.

    I decided to give colemak a try about three weeks ago.  I switched cold turkey with the portable colemak keyboard.  I practice about 1 hour a day (actual practice time, not regular computer use).  I have noticed that since the switch, my left wrist has been terribly sore.

    I never had this pain with dvorak.  The only thing that I noticed with dvorak was that my right pinkie got tired easily, but that slowly went away.  This just seems to be getting worse. 

    I really want to give colemak a chance.  Has anyone experienced this?  Will it stop getting worse / go away?

    Thanks,
    Q

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    • From: Malmö, Sweden
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    Are you using the capslock key as backspace? If you are, then it is probably the cause and you will soon get used to it.

    Dvorak has a 14% preferences over the right hand, compared to colemak's 6%. So it might just be that your left hand sudenly has  alot more work to do in order to keep up with the right.
    Something that could make up for this, if you are not already doing this, is to use the right shift and control modifiers whenever possible.

    Last edited by vaskozl (05-Sep-2013 19:30:55)

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    I personally think that it's harder to type with the left hand in a comfortable position.

    Dvorak doesn't really challenge the left either.  So it's probably got more work to do.

    When I look down at my left hand I find it really hard to type with a straight wrist.  Due to the backwards stagger on the keys.

    I think the angle mod would help here.  D and R on Qwerty taking the same finger.  And C moving to X's position, which will also move the B in by a key.   Which looks to be an awkward key to get to.  Don't think this is possible on a US keyboard.

    Or use an ergonomic keyboard.

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    The most common angle mod on US/ANSI keyboards is probably moving the Z inwards to the old B position and letting XCVB slide outwards. The A-wing mod is more ambitious, like a Wide mod but moving the home and top row keys (e.g., brackets) all the way to the left instead of to the middle.

    CmkIBM-ANSI60d-AFrame_Tinted.png

    But yeah – an ISO/Euro 105-key board is definitely better.

    Last edited by DreymaR (06-Sep-2013 14:03:54)

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    @pinkyache - I actually have my left wrist positioned just like my right, angled in as opposed to angled out like it is "supposed" to be.  I type keys on the left side of the keyboard just like the ones on the right.  ))))((((

    My index finger presses C,V, and sometimes B (depending on the word), middle presses X, ring presses Z, and pinkie only presses shift.  It is a more natural position for me than trying to force my wrist to angle out.  This guy does it, too.  Pressing the keys on the lower left row is a non-issue with this technique.

    http://www.onehandkeyboard.org/standard … placement/

    @DreymaR - that looks like it would really slow a lot of the vowel digraphs typing them all with the right pinkie. (YO OI IO OY) It also leaves the left pinkie almost unused. 

    Perhaps I will learn to tolerate the awkward Dvorak F and L

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    • From: Malmö, Sweden
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    Silentq you are misunderstanding Dreymar's sugestion. He means to offset the home row position by one to the right, so that your hands are still on "arst neio", while having the bottom row slanting outwards on both sides.

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    To touch type, ideally your wrists should be floating a bit on top of the keyboards and moving slightly, keeping the wrists moving up and down and using only your fingers to press the key.

    If you are resting your wrists at one place and twisting your wrists to reach the desired keys, it may create RSI.

    Colemak uses the left hand more than Dvorak, so the additional workload maybe part of the problem. Not mention the added stress of switching process.

    For me, I am left handed, so sometimes I have the wrist sore, but only on the right hand. When it occurs, I switch the mouse to the left to alleviate some workload to my left, preferred hand.

    You may want to try a mechanical keyboard as well, to get better typing feel and comfort.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (07-Sep-2013 04:50:08)
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    @silentq, I think I understand how you type, which isn't in the conventional touch typing style.  If you are still having issues then there's not a lot else I have to offer.

    @tony_vn, I don't rest my wrists but I find it's all too easy to kink my left wrist using the standard keyboard.  Not helped by the stagger and the conventional approach to touch typing.

    @dreymar I get mixed up between the angle and wide mods.  Is there an easy reference for each of these?

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    Thanks for the suggestions, though. Colemak has started to grow on me, so I think I will stick it out for another month and see if anything improves.  I also bought an ergonomic keyboard, maybe that will help, too.

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    Sorry pinkyache, I don't know of any better references than those I point to in my sig topics...

    Basically, the Angle mods try to give you a better left-hand wrist angle and the Wide mods move some keys into the middle for a number of reasons. I consider the former the most important for comfort.

    Last edited by DreymaR (09-Sep-2013 11:08:37)

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    Well, I tried switching back to Dvorak and it just felt awkward what with the placement of L S and F, also the UP/PU digram.  However, I miss the TH lol.

    I think I will give colemak a couple months before dismissing it.

    One thing I have noticed is that my rate of improvement with Colemak is much slower than Dvorak.  I am not sure if that is due to the lack of alternation on Colemak or muscle memory of Dvorak as it was my first experience with touch typing.  Likely both.  My accuracy was much higher with Dvorak because with Colemak  I get into habits with rolls like "oul" and when "oun" or "out" come along, I still roll out "oul".  Then again, I still sometimes type "S" when I am meaning to type "E" (dvorak position for E in a colemak layout).

    For me, at least, hand alternation really helped accuracy.  I suppose at the higher tier of speeds when all letter combos are practically subconscious, it is a non-issue and where Colemak and rolls are supposed to shine, but as for early progression (0-60) Dvorak seems easier and came faster.  With Colemak, I think accuracy is the key to work on for faster progression, where as with Dvorak my accuracy was great and I would just type to improve.

    Interesting differences between the two layouts.

    Last edited by silentq (19-Sep-2013 18:22:26)
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    I'd guess that the slower improvement is at least in part due to the confusion of switching more than once? I used Dvorak for a year or two before moving on to Colemak, and I remember the second transition as somewhat more confusing than the first.

    Last edited by DreymaR (20-Sep-2013 12:47:20)

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    Dvorak and Colemak are not on the same level to compare, since you are already proficient in Dvorak when switching to Colemak.

    No wonder that your Dvorak speed and accuracy is better.

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    Well, it has been over a month now and I am still going with Colemak.  I tried switching back to Dvorak a while ago and that lasted about one day.  The awkward placement of a lot of the top row letters has become very apparent since learning Colemak. 

    I stopped using the Caps Lock key as a back space and my wrist pain went away.  It was either from the twisting of the hand or the increased workload of Dvorak to Colemak.  I think I'll give it a few more weeks and then begin using the Caps Lock backspace again.  I think I'll also make a conscious effort to slide my hand to the left to press it instead of twisting my hand out to reach it.

    On a side note, I notice a very apparent difference in speed and accuracy between typing with my wrists resting on my keyboard rest or elevating them.  When I elevate them I improve my accuracy by 2-3% and improve my wpm by about 4-7 depending on the text and amount of symbols used.  It has a greater difference the more symbols there are.  I got these stats from Amphetype.

    Q

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    Glad you've found something that works for you! :)

    Using the Wide mod, the Backspace key is closer so I find myself using both the Caps and Back keys now. I often hit the Back key with my ring finger.

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    I think you were right about the slower progression being due to the second transition, I could type dvorak with incredible rhythm do to the hand alternation; colemak is different feel altogether.  I also still find myself typing S instead of E from time to time (dvorak E location).

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    If I were a Colemak typist on an ANSI layout then I wouldn't shift the left bottom row, but I would rotate it instead:

    ZXCVB => XCVBZ

    or:

    ZXCVB => XCVZB

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    Spremino that is a bad idea, since you won't be able to type on other computers with colemak properly. Moreover, it defeats the purpose of keeping zxcv there in the first place.

    Switching between angle and normal is not that hard, as is going from wide to non-wide, so I'm ok with those as they are fundamentally the same layout.

    But imho it really doesn't make that much of a difference. I've used both angle/wide and normal for a considerable time and while the angle mod makes it easier to hit zxcv, p and g become slighly harder. Furthemore, you're forfeiting being able to type default colemak in full comfort,considering colemak is now included by default in both linux and mac os.

    Last edited by vaskozl (29-Oct-2013 19:45:28)

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    I've added that shift for ANSI keyboards in my xkb patch, under the model name 'pc104angle-z'. If you want to combine it with a Wide mod you'll have to comment out/in a line pair in the keycodes/evdev file.

    I think it's a good idea for some but vaskozl's points are also valid. I disagree that it defeats the purpose of the hotkey row: Z is still in the vicinity and it's the only hotkey that shifts fingers while XCVB stay where you'll expect them once you're used to typing on the Angle mod (unless you blind-hotkey based on the old distances). So I give you the option and the choice is yours. Myself, I prefer getting an ISO keyboard even though I'll ideally want one with US key markings and those are rare. I like configurable boards like the Unicomp.

    I love the angle and wide mods, but I agree that they make life on other machines slightly more challenging. The point about colemak in full comfort on linux doesn't apply to me though, as my patch implements the ergo mods as keyboard *models* so you can use any *layout* combined with them without much hassle (and make them global for all users in case you've remodeled your keyboard accordingly like I tend to do)!

    Last edited by DreymaR (30-Oct-2013 08:11:53)

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