• You are not logged in.

Recommended finger placement

  • Started by BullHorn
  • 46 Replies:
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

I don't think the ISO keyboard does anything to the numbers row? That's the locale layouts (e.g., UK), and sure enough – there are weird solutions aplenty in that department.

It's possible to get ISO keyboards with US markings, but it isn't common. I have a Unicomp "Model M" board but that's for the click-clack-lovers. The caps are replaceable so you can do just about anything with it (even have Unicomp print you a set of custom caps if you're prepared to pay for it).

    Cmk-AWideSl_Unicomp_DreymaR.jpg
    My beloved Unicomp board – the picture is from my pre-DbgHk-mod days

The Enter key is a weak point of the ISO keyboard. The ANSI Enter is much better, if a little fat. Again, one solution to this is the Wide mod! I have no gap between the apostrophe key and Enter.

The even better solution to me is Extend! I use the real Enter key less than half the time, and the rest of my Enter input is done with Caps+Space which is surprisingly easy once you get used to the Caps key as a modifier. [Then again, SteveP just said that. My reading skills shall have to go flog themselves now.]

If I had to use an ANSI board, I might go for the A-Wing mod because it has the coolest name by far! :-p But actually, there's another. [Okay, not-so-subtle Star Wars reference there...] But it may be too much for you, since it means shifting the LShift! The old LShift key becomes your Z (which looks silly but it works), and since the Shift key should in no way be relegated to the old B position it could for instance go to the Alt key position which is a good one for thumb presses; the Alt key could sit in the old B position without much trouble I think. And you might study RShift usage if you aren't using that key enough now. But yes, it's kind of dramatic.

To the others here: Do any of you remember where this ANSI-Angle mod was presented on this forum?

Last edited by DreymaR (23-Jan-2016 17:10:48)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 117
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 14-Apr-2014
  • Posts: 978
DreymaR said:

The old LShift key becomes your Z

I suggested that too, a little further up this thread :P

DreymaR said:

To the others here: Do any of you remember where this ANSI-Angle mod was presented on this forum?

Probably this one?

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 117
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 14-Apr-2014
  • Posts: 978

Just wonder, why do you move the UNEI keys to the arrow positions?  I have noticed others doing that as well.  It kind of looks funny having the letter keys in the arrow key positions!

Last edited by stevep99 (23-Jan-2016 22:03:49)

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 19-Jan-2016
  • Posts: 37

I bet he just ran out of keycaps...

This ordeal is just depressing me, I already know that there is no perfect ANSI solution. There's also things I dislike about ISO, but they can be fixed by using US locale ANSI replacement caps or blank keycaps (would greatly appreciate if you can point me to a store that sells those for a 60% keyboard that ships internationally...). I'm also unsure if Amazon will accept the return and refund it because I slightly damaged the internal package of the keyboard..........

The funny thing is that I didn't even get far enough in the lessons to actually type Z, X and C. I just have a strong feeling that it will be a problem.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361
stevep99 said:
DreymaR said:

The old LShift key becomes your Z

I suggested that too, a little further up this thread :P

Pereant qui ante nos nostra dixerunt! ;-)

My own reasons for the UNEI swap were:
• I wanted a nubbed key in the N position, and didn't want to manhandle my N key to scratch out one. The Down key had a nub.
• Once that was in place, I felt that it looked cooler to move the entire UNEI arrow cross.
• Keep in mind also that the UNEI keys become the arrow cross in the Extend mod!

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 19-Jan-2016
  • Posts: 37

Actually, I was looking at DreymaR's A-Frame I believe it was called:

Cmk-ANSI-AFrame_60d-Tinted.png

At first when testing I thought to myself 'hmm, the left shift is far from perfect (pun intended)' but now I realize it is exactly as far as it is on a regular ISO keyboard.

I'll go figure out how to program this layout on the POK3R and be back soon!

-EDIT: I also found a very good looking and extremely cheap set of blank PBT key caps with worldwide shipping. If anyone is interested, it's here.

-EDIT2: Programming the POK3R into the A-Frame layout took me less than 3 minutes. I kinda wish I had a keycap puller here to move the F and J keys to the right but It'll have to wait till I fly back home...

Last edited by BullHorn (23-Jan-2016 23:45:30)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

I prefer the name "A-Wing". Vroooaaar!!! ;-) It isn't "my" mod; I think it was invented by Cevgar. Wonderful, creative, crazy Cevgar!

I think the distance to the Tab key is perfectly acceptable. The distance to Caps may be a problem for the Extend mod though; not quite sure what to do about that but it has been suggested to use the old A key as Extend key instead, and put a bracket on the old Caps! That looks a bit messy but it could work well in practice. Or one could rearrange further, put the brackets on the top row and backtick on the Caps key?

The distance to LShift is as you say, what we ISO peeps were used to already. It's okay, I promise. ANSI users tend to be a little put off at first but I think they get used to it pretty quickly.

Last edited by DreymaR (24-Jan-2016 01:18:34)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 19-Jan-2016
  • Posts: 37

Haha, OK.

Actually, while you're still here, do you remember what were your opinions on the A-Wing vs. cevgar's "ThumbsPlus1 Angle ANSI" or a single-space variation of it??


___________________________________________________________
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 |   | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 |   | BSp |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g |   |   | j | l | u | y | ; | ' |
| BkSp | A | R | S | T | d |   |   | h | N | E | I | O    |
|      z | x | c | v | b |   |   |   | k | m | , | .      |
| Ctr | Wn | Alt |       Space        | Shft | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------

(I swapped the Space and Shift due to my 20+ years of pressing Space with the left-had thumb)

Last edited by BullHorn (24-Jan-2016 01:06:01)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

Yes, the opinion was that a double-wide mod is probably a bridge too far, at least on an ANSI board. If you make that single-wide instead you can keep the RShift in use and put LShift on the Alt key instead?

Also, that mod changes the expected positions of the right-hand number row which I found very confusing when trying it out.

____________________________________________________________
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | = | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | Back |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g | [ | j | l | u | y | ; | ' | \  |
| Ext  | A | R | S | T | d | ] | h | N | E | I | O | Enter |
|      z | x | c | v | b | • | / | k | m | , | . | RShift  |
| Ctr | Wn | LSh |       Space        | RAlt | W | M | Ctl |
------------------------------------------------------------

Something like this? The key marked '•' could be the LAlt key. Alt is often used alone, to initiate menus. Not sure if you want AltGr on RAlt, or just an Alt key? AltGr is another wonder of the ISO world that ANSI users in general didn't take to, with the embarrassing result that most US typists can't use accents.

Putting the slash key in the middle isn't ideal (mine is where the apostrophe is on the above figure, but then I have room for the apostrophe between O and Enter). But it's okay I think. It's what the A-Wing and other ANSI mods does, too.

It does look interesting, I must say! How well the thumb shift works in practice remains to be tested.

SteveP99's suggestion is also worth considering:

stevep99 said:

For an ANSI board, I still think I'd go with single-column wide layout, but I do like the idea of having Shift as a thumb key (either Space or AltGr) and keeping Z in the correct place. Then I'd also press RWin into service as the new AltGr.  Something like...

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | = | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | Back |
| Tab | q | w | f | p | g | [ | j | l | u | y | ; | ' | \  |
| Back | A | R | S | T | d | ] | h | N | E | I | O | Ent   |
|      z | x | c | v | b | _ | / | k | m | , | .  |Shift   |         
| Ctr | Wn | Alt | Shift              | Spc |AGr| M | Ctrl |
+----------------------------------------------------------+

Maybe it'd work better with the Shift on AltGr and Space unmoved, as suggested. But then, both Shift keys are on the right hand – would that be okay?

Last edited by DreymaR (24-Jan-2016 01:35:22)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 19-Jan-2016
  • Posts: 37

I use Alt only for specific cases (Alt+Tabbing and opening Windows menu) so the L.Alt must stay as is. I've never used R.Alt or AltGr in my life so perhaps that can work as a Shift key.

So I narrowed it down to 2 possible layouts:

Wide and Angled:
YP5rgYL.png

Some thoughts:
Looks fine but I don't know if I'm a fan of moving /? and '" as well as the separation in the middle... Maybe I'm just being too picky.

Just Angled:
dvGquND.png

More thoughts:
I actually like this one more because I don't really care much about the Wide mod and this stays much closer to original.
Really hating the Shift on this one though, it doesn't really fit well without the Wide mod...... Hmmm, could use some help here. :x

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

Both look nice. I do agree with you on the /? key issue, that place in the middle dump is not the optimal place for it.

Maybe you'll still grow to like the Wide mod as I and many did. One of its benefits is easier access to the RAlt/AltGr key (and all other right-side keys)! So uh, sorry, but that'd be my tip. :-) But for an ANSI user the quarters are cramped and you have to make sacrifices no matter what – pick your poison.

Another suggestion would be to put Shift on LAlt and LAlt on RAlt (or just trust that the RAlt will do everything you need!

One question though: When you go through all this trouble to find an Angle mod, you do want the DH-mod too I hope? I find it very comfortable to have a naturally curled home position instead of the forced straight line thinking.

Some users have complained that their RAlt key was gone; apparently it was a program that used that key specifically for something. But that may not concern you.

Myself, I love the AltGr key. Love it to pieces. It means two more shift layers (and potentially, two more Extend layers). These let me write all sorts of accents/currency/symbols and lesser-used letters. This is a great boon when writing other languages such as Icelandic but I'm guessing you don't do that. But also to get for instance the —€•®™†‡©¢÷×←↑→↓ symbols and more. The ability to write bulleted text in Notepad is nice.

    Cmk-ISO-eD-CurlAWide_90d_FShui.png
    Fig.: Colemak [edition DreymaR] with Curl(DbgHk), Angle and Wide(Slash) ergonomic mods (or in short, Colemak[eD]-CAW; see my sig topic).

Note all the yellow keys: These are dead keys. AltGr+5 produces all the Greek letters for scientific and other purposes; AltGr+4 a bunch of currency symbols and some of the accent keys are overloaded with symbols too. Αωεσομε, eh? ;-) (See my PKL sig topic for more examples of Colemak[eD] dead key mappings.)

Last edited by DreymaR (24-Jan-2016 09:34:40)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 19-Jan-2016
  • Posts: 37

To be honest I'm reluctant to use any mod... I really like default Colemak as it is, I think. The only thing that really bothers me is the realization that the left side of staggered keyboards is not designed for humans and I don't know if I want to use a completely hipster layout to fix it or just go with the flow and do what davkol and many others do - move adjacent fingers down-and-right along with the pinky/ring fingers when typing Z, X and C.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 117
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 14-Apr-2014
  • Posts: 978
BullHorn said:

Of the two, I would go with this one. Using the right Alt key for Shift is a great idea, and by having the home keys further to the right, it will make that key even easier to access with your right thumb. Since you already use your left thumb for space, it means you can have separate functions for each of your two thumbs, which I believe you'll find to be extremely effective.

The only minor downside I can think of is if you need to do frequent mouse shift-clicks. But that's not a major issue for most people.

I would also swap /? with \| though, the rarer backslash key should be in that awkward centre position I think.

My keyboard has a split spacebar, so I have configured one side of the spacebar to be Shift.  Having Shift via a thumb is brilliant. The Shift key positions on a standard keyboard (ISO or ANSI) are terrible in my opinion.

Last edited by stevep99 (24-Jan-2016 16:17:29)

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 19-Jan-2016
  • Posts: 37

I contacted Amazon and verified if they accept returns of items in less-than-perfect condition packaging (I ruined it a little) and they said it's not a problem.
So with this I started the refund and hopefully get an ISO UK one by Thursday (I hope they don't screw it up because the text says ISO UK and the image shows an ANSI...).

I agree stevep99, the Just Angled variant has too many flaws. If I had to be stuck on ANSI, I'd probably either stay with default Colemak and just suck it up or do the Wide and Angeled variation.

I'll update in a few days when I hopefully get an ISO keyboard. Thanks for all the help everyone and sorry for wasting your time, ANSI is just a real party pooper.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

Yay! Welcome to the ISO world, then! :-)

Hope your caps markings will be acceptable or replaceable to something acceptable.

I don't feel that we've wasted our time, but spent time developing solutions for other people in the same situation. We love a good keyboard discussion! ;-)

BullHorn said:

a completely hipster layout

I have a hipster layout, I have a hipster layout! *squee*

Last edited by DreymaR (25-Jan-2016 11:53:55)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 19-Jan-2016
  • Posts: 37

:thumbsup: !

So to add to this discussion, if you're like me and dislike the extra symbols on ISO keyboards and don't mind a blank keycap set without having to invest a leg or an arm, there's THIS set on AliExpress for $15 with worldwide shipping.

It results in a keyboard that looks similar to this:

cctneqIl.jpg

I'd probably prefer something with letters printed but I couldn't find anything as cheap and still good looking as this! It is ANSI layout but if you're on a 60% keyboard, you can use some of the extra keys for the 2 keys that aren't part of ANSI.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

Slick!

Is there a key cap that'll fit the ISO LShift key, though?

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 19-Jan-2016
  • Posts: 37

Unfortunately there may not... I plan to keep the default modifier keys. I'll know for sure when it arrives in a couple of weeks. I know it arrives with the ANSI \|, can it be used as an ISO L.Shift?

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

Not sure. ISO LShift is the same width as LAlt/RAlt; that is, 1.5 keys I think? Tab is 1/4 key wider and I think the ANSI \| may have Tab width?

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 17-Nov-2014
  • Posts: 102

Wow that is a good price. I might have to jump on that.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 09-Apr-2012
  • Posts: 7

The number one thing to make touch typing comfortable is to get an ergonomic keyboard with straight columns, and preferably concave well to accommodate different finger lengths. Related, try to get one with thumb pads so you can use thumbs to hold shift and hit enter and backspace. This will save your pinkies from major harm while improving keyboard usage comfort and efficiency.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

I'm not sure that straight columns alone is so great. With a hollow, maybe. With the columns angled, sure.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0