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Is Workman off its rocker?!?

  • Started by DreymaR
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That's a looker, that is! Seems like a waste with all those wide arrow keys in the middle, to my personal tastes; I'd rather use an Extend layer for navigation keys anyway.

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That keyboard is excellent! Why can't that design be more mainstream???
Weird layout of letters though.

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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Yes Steve, it is! It is one of those Japanese M-System keyboards, this one's by NEC. The split MuTron board is a spin off of that project, just as the one-piece Esrille keyboard.

The Japanese were not hold back by the Qwerty legacy, so for the Latin letters they also use Dvorak (these are '80s/'90s board, no Colemak back then). This looks like some strange "Engrish" take on Dvorak :-)  Input of Japanese characters goes by combinations of keystrokes, they have several systems for that, one of them being the "M-System".

Also, the Japanese language does not use the space like we do, so no need for a large space bar.

I am not sure what to think of the midde navigation keys, davkol (forumite here and on Deskthority) says they are comfortable.

I would buy this board in a heart beat (if it had a custom controller, so you could define your own keys).  It is ergonomical without being extreme. My mother could type on it (if in Qwerty).

But - no one makes or sells this anymore! My guess is that we have gotten too "stuck" in the Qwerty letter layout (fortunately this forum is working on that :- .  And too stuck in the "IBM AT / XT" keyboard layout which now is some standard....

I know of some "mainstream" split keyboards, like the Microsoft Ergo boards and the newer Matias split board. But no one sells a one-piece symmetrical board. I guess it is not commercially attractive? No supply= no demand = no supply, or something like that?

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Is Workman off its rocker?!?

Overreaction much? Of course not unexpected from fanatics who can't take criticism for their divine Colemak layout, apparently delivered by the gods themselves.

It should be very obvious that drumming your fingers one after the other is a lot more comfortable (and faster) than repeatedly drumming with one finger.

It really depends on which fingers are involved. Pinky-ring rolls are extremely uncomfortable, much worse than double-tapping the strong fingers (index, middle, and ring.)

To play devil's advocate, I would at least agree the same finger on some keys is not as bad as other keys. For example (qwerty) QZ would be worse than MN. But unfortunately, Workman's worst incidence of same-finger is PO, which is on a weaker finger (ring), so even that argument doesn't really hold up very well.

Double-tap on ring fingers is actually not bad, very acceptable. What is unacceptable are double-pinky, where Colemak is 60% to 100% more common than Workman. That is a much more serious crime to discomfort and speed.

Yes, same-finger bigrams are so bad that the typing experts devise ways to circumvent them even on good layouts. The Workman guy is indeed off his rocker.

Then why do you excuse Colemak, which has such high same-finger usage on the weakest finger? Colemak's double-pinky occurrence rate is as almost as high as Workman's double-index and way more than its double-ring. See here for comparisons of layouts.

It is odd that he would say that. If one really thought SFU didn't matter, and that only key position did, then it would be better to pick Norman over Workman. Norman has high same-finger ratio but otherwise quite well-positioned keys, and has the benefit of being easier to learn (i.e. closer to Qwerty) than both Workman and Colemak.

You really think putting ASET all on the same hand is a good idea? Not to mention Norman scores worse overall in prose and code.

Last edited by Shena'Fu (29-Sep-2016 07:35:27)
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Shena'Fu said:

Overreaction much? Of course not unexpected from fanatics who can't take criticism for their divine Colemak layout, apparently delivered by the gods themselves.

[...]

Pinky-ring rolls are extremely uncomfortable, much worse than double-tapping the strong fingers (index, middle, and ring.)

[...]

Double-tap on ring fingers is actually not bad, very acceptable. What is unacceptable are double-pinky, where Colemak is 60% to 100% more common than Workman. That is a much more serious crime to discomfort and speed. [...] Colemak's double-pinky occurrence rate is as almost as high as Workman's double-index and way more than its double-ring. See here for comparisons of layouts.

I would contest that you, Shena'Fu, are in fact the one overreacting here. I have "faith" in Colemak, true, but I have no particular gripes with other good layouts – just preferences (some of them personal).

I do stand by my strong reaction to the claim that same-finger is quite okay! And I do feel that neither Norman nor Workman are brilliant layouts; Workman being the better of them by far though. To a large extent they seem fueled by "middle-trench" worries that can now be resolved with Colemak (mod-DH) for a, in my opinion, superior result.

I have to disagree quite strongly with your claim that ring-finger or strong finger same-finger n-grams are in any way good. They're not. I do agree on pinky-ring and vice versa rolls being uncomfortable.

I agree that Colemak's right pinky same-finger frequency is a weak point. However, your figure of 60–100% fails with other syllabi than the pitifully inadequate 'Chapter 1 of Alice In Wonderland' (never test with that text alone; use something much longer!). Generally, Colemak is a little better off than Dvorak in this respect (using some syllabi I found) but not as good as one might wish for; Workman is a little better off and Norman not. That BEAKL Opted layout has a nice same-finger frequency I must say; I haven't checked it out so I don't know what else it has. ;-)

On a side note, I've actually typed through Alice Through The Looking Glass using Amphetype and standard Colemak(AngleWide), a text very much similar to Alice In Wonderland I should think. I think I know part of the reason why the right pinky gets such a same-finger overload in analysis: In that book there's a lot of quoting! Typing ' or " → Enter or period (or other combos) has to drive up that statistic. I skirted the Enter problem using Extend in which the Enter key is on Space, and for period I recommend alternative fingering if the problem is encountered frequently such as in that text. So the high same-finger frequency of the right pinky can be alleviated in some ways, at least. Of course, this doesn't touch on the differences between Workman and Colemak as they both have the standard positions for the quote and other symbol keys.

Last edited by DreymaR (29-Sep-2016 10:28:07)

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Shena'Fu said:

Overreaction much? Of course not unexpected from fanatics who can't take criticism for their divine Colemak layout, apparently delivered by the gods themselves.

That's hardly true - there are some valid criticisms of Colemak to be made. The fact that Mod DH exists at all is a recognition of, and response to, some of those criticisms. I can think of other minor criticisms too, but I'd say on balance there are fewer things to complain about with Colemak than the other competing layouts. I think everyone accepts no layout is perfect, and may depend on personal taste to some extent.

Shena'Fu said:

Double-tap on ring fingers is actually not bad, very acceptable. What is unacceptable are double-pinky, where Colemak is 60% to 100% more common than Workman. That is a much more serious crime to discomfort and speed.

This seems to be a genuine difference in opinion regarding ring fingers - Workman obviously considers the ring finger strong - in addition to the right-hand PO, the left hand also has D on the ring finger. That D was one of the things that ruled out Workman for me. I consider ring fingers to significantly worse than index and middle fingers, but that's just my personal view.

I am genuinely interested to know where this high double-pinky stat for Colemak comes from, as it would be quite a flaw if true. Is it simply O plus apostrophe? National layouts differ somewhat with their placement of some of those right-pinky keys (e.g. UK keyboard has double-quote on shift-2 so <O"> wouldn't be a same-finger-bigram for me. Surely Workman (and other layouts that keep punctuation symbols unchanged) would also suffer this 'problem'. And it should also be fairly easily rectifiable by the use of a symbol layer if desired.

Last edited by stevep99 (29-Sep-2016 11:03:57)

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stevep99 said:

I consider ring fingers to significantly worse than index and middle fingers, but that's just my personal view.

Unless my piano teacher lied to me (and I doubt that!), it's not just your personal view but reality for most people. Maybe the Workman creator has uncommonly strong and fit ring fingers? Who knows. I think that learning to play the piano has helped the strength and independence of both my ring and little fingers, but I still have no love for the ring finger positions when typing.

If O→'/'→O bigrams  are indeed a problem for Colemak typing, then it's very easily solvable with alternative fingering. That one's so obvious I do it without thinking. This is of course a weakness with analysis software – I've yet to see one that picks up on the subtler points of typing! :-)

Something must be afoot other than symbol placements, as mentioned, since Colemak does score consistently poorer than, say, Workman, on right pinky same-finger.

In actual Colemak typing, I can't say I've reacted to any right pinky awkwardness. But it's easy to get used to whatever you're doing so I don't put too much stock in that.

Last edited by DreymaR (29-Sep-2016 12:02:34)

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Have anybody noticed that www.workmanlayout.com is gone?

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Just made an account to ask this, is there a non angle-mod DH layout that is recommended? I'm looking to swap from Qwerty for the first time and I want to give mod-DH a try but I think id rather learn standard Colemak than learn angle-mod as well.

I'm also completely willing to move around common short cut keys as long as they can still be used with the left hand only. (ZXCVASTW being the keys that I would like to remain on the left) Would there be any loss in general efficiency (excluding shortcut muscle memory) putting Z in the heinous Qwerty B key position? How would the rest of the bottom left best be shuffled around if one were to do that?

Last edited by 163 (31-Mar-2017 23:16:41)
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My journey is from qwerty to standard Colemak to Angle(Z)Wide mode applied to standard Colemak to Colemak DH Mod. Can not tell anything regarding non-angle DH mod, you better ask Steve about that. But I would say, do not afraid the Angle mod. Z in B position is just fine. It is so rare in English that I do not miss it at all and a little slow down in typing Z does not change your overall speed. I always suffered from idiocy of the standard keyboard and the Angle-Wide mode finally change that that the standard keys arrangement started to make sense for me. It is still not ideal, but way better than before. Before switching to Angle mod I kept keyboard tilted to somehow compensate the assymetry of left and right hands movements, now it is almost symmetric.

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163 said:

Just made an account to ask this, is there a non angle-mod DH layout that is recommended?

Well, yes there is. If you want to avoid applying the angle mod at all, but still want improvement to D and H, then you could do the DpgHm switch:
curl_dpghm_ansi.png

However...

163 said:

I'm looking to swap from Qwerty for the first time and I want to give mod-DH a try but I think id rather learn standard Colemak than learn angle-mod as well.
I'm also completely willing to move around common short cut keys as long as they can still be used with the left hand only. (ZXCVASTW being the keys that I would like to remain on the left) Would there be any loss in general efficiency (excluding shortcut muscle memory) putting Z in the heinous Qwerty B key position? How would the rest of the bottom left best be shuffled around if one were to do that?

...I agree with ckofy, if you are willing to switch to Colemak, I don't think you need fear the angle mod, it's a relatively minor change compared to switching to Colemak. Also since you said you are OK with switching around other keys on the left hand side, including Z X C, I don't understand your reticence about the the angle mod..?

If you have an ANSI keyboard, moving Z to the B position is probably your best bet. For ISO keyboard, obviously better to simply move the keys one to the left.

Last edited by stevep99 (01-Apr-2017 11:10:06)

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Thanks for the replies guys, think I now have the layout i'm going to try.

stevep99 said:

Also since you said you are OK with switching around other keys on the left hand side, including Z X C, I don't understand your reticence about the the angle mod..?

The way I sit at my desk and use a keyboard 90% of the time just makes it seem unappealing. It's also another level of change since I currently use the traditional fingers for each key.

I'm going to use the layout you posted with a change to the bottom row so it's ZVCBXKH instead. Keeps the shortcuts within reach but lets me put a very low frequency key in the worst spot. I'm going to start learning it now but if someone posts saying there's something terribly wrong with that bottom row I might still change it.

Last edited by 163 (01-Apr-2017 21:43:26)
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I agree with Steve, the Angle-Z mod still looks like your best option! I think it's better than Dpg mods. And as far as I can see, it's less of a change than your proposed one?

What you write looks confusing. You say you use the traditional fingers for each key? Well, that's exactly what you're supposed to do with the Angle mod! But with a better wrist angle, hence the name of the mod. Apart from Z which may move on the non-ISO mods, the ring finger hits X and the middle finger C etc, which is the traditional fingering. What did you mean?

Your suggested bottom row has no D, which is a major point of DH-modding. Instead, it moves V and X around for no apparent reason I can think of. Please explain?

Also, remember that there are several options in DH-modding. You can choose Hk or Hm on the right hand (or if you need it, mods involving L too), and on the left there's at least Dbg and Dvbg in addition to the IMO less efficient Dpg one that SteveP mentioned.

I'd recommend XCVDZ|HM (Wide, Curl-DbgHk and Angle-Z mods) as your bottom row, but that's me. ;-)


 q  w  F  P  B  J  L  U  Y  ; 
  a  R  S  T  g  K  N  E  I  O     The Colemak-Curl(DbgHk)-Angle(Z) layout
    x  c  v  D  Z  H  m 
 q  w  F  P  B  [  J  L  U  Y  ;  '
  a  R  S  T  g  ]  K  N  E  I  O     The Colemak-Curl(DbgHk)-Angle(Z)-Wide(') layout
    x  c  v  D  Z  /  H  m 
Last edited by DreymaR (03-Apr-2017 09:49:55)

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I came across this thread via /r/Mk - I'm a colemak user too.

Anyway, I'm currently running an interest check for a pcb and switch plate that fits a standard 60% keyboard case. The layout may appeal to some of you, since it's a symmetrical stagger:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88 … msg2397349

I hope to see some of you there!

Last edited by rominronin (09-Apr-2017 21:40:57)
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Very nice! If I were buying a board right now, something like this would be high on my list indeed. Best of luck!

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Well it took a while to get it off the ground, but the PCB is finished and it should be available to buy in the nest few days; either bare or in a full kit from candykeys.com

I have been writing a default firmware which of course means I've been considering many different layout possibilities. I have something basic that would be fine on the day of launch, but - @DreymaR - I have been mulling over some of the options in your 'big bag of tricks'. How would you feel if I were to take your ideas and create a firmware for the Katana60 out of them?

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Best of luck with that ToB (Thing of Beauty)!!!

What's "Raise"? Same as "Extend", or what? (If so, not a good name as Extend extends your reach to arrow keys etc etc but doesn't raise anything so it's something else I guess.)

I've wondered where the name Extend came from but I found it in some older references from before we used it in PortableKeyboardLayout so it has some tradition. It's not mentioned on Wikipedia (yet) though. Its closest equivalent is the laptop Fn key which I think is a horrible name as it doesn't really tell us anything and we already have 12–24 F## function keys. Granted, the Fn key often changes the F## keys to multimedia keys and back. And at least, 'Fn' is a compact key label... ;-)

I'd be happy and honored if you want to bring parts of the Big Bag to your Katana60! Please make a new topic for the keyboard (we don't want this brilliant keyboard to be stuck in the anti-Workman thread, now, do we?) and we can mull it over together if you wish.

The simplest way is TMK support I guess [edit: I see you have both that and QMK?]; then everyone with a bit of TMK code including myself would have it their way. I suppose you've browsed my TMK repo. But you may want something more direct?

Last edited by DreymaR (03-Nov-2017 10:33:40)

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I mostly just followed the convention set by olkb for 'raise' layer and 'lower' layer names. I'm not too attached to either.

The keycap sets produced for the mechanical keyboard community often have novelty caps with their own odd names.

I'm happy to make a new thread for the Katana60, how do you think I should introduce it?

I'm happy to try alternatives to what I'm used to, and I've considedered your layout (or parts of it) for a while now, I'd love to have your input!

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Not sure how you should write the Katana up, but I'm sure you'll do great. And I'm looking forward to discussing the possibilities! ;-)

So, Raise/Lower mapping layers then. Yeah, kinda makes sense I guess, similar to TMK/QMK lingo. But I can't help feeling it's still a somewhat counterintuitive term for the end user who doesn't necessarily think like a programmer. For the particular "raised" layer that has extended keyboard keys jumping to your fingertips, I really like the term Extend and around here it's very much standard. To the extent that it's kind of overused: We have users talking about "Extend" layers with character remappings in them which doesn't make as much sense to me. "Raised" layers would be a more generic term in that case, but I'm still okay with "Extend" as I think of such a layer extending/expanding the key map – again, allowing you to reach further!

Last edited by DreymaR (09-Nov-2017 10:30:45)

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stevep99 said:
cevgar said:

As for Qwerty CV positions, I find the C moderately easier to hit. Also, just watching my fingers move -  if I keep the rest of the hand anchored to the home positions, F to C is a straight curl. F to V requires at least a little lateral movement. I can see the muscle shifting sideways, which probably means it is more stressful in the long run.

Yes, this!  DreymaR and I disagree a little here, but I think my version of the mod is significantly better, whether on matrix or traditional boards, for exactly this reason. The point about maintaining XCV is legitimate, but in all honesty, applying the angle mod at all causes these keys to change. Sure, the same finger is used, but there is a still disruption to familiar learned motion of, say, Ctrl-C after applying the angle mod.

Therefore I don't buy that XCVDZ is as good as XCDVZ. If you are willing to apply the angle mod at all (which although is worth it, I can understand why some people wouldn't want to, especially if they are ANSI users), then you might as well go for XCDVZ over XCVDZ, especially as the former keeps V exactly in place, and you end up with a more comfortable D, which is easily the most common of those five keys.

If however you have already applied and gotten used to the angle mod on default Colemak first, then I can see the attraction of XCVDZ, as it seems like a smaller change from what you're used to. I'm sure that's why DreymaR prefers his variant. For those not already using an angle mod variant, I don't see any benefit to XCVDZ at all.

I don't think there is any prospect of getting unified agreement on DH mods here, especially since relying on the angle mod already introduces a difficulty for ANSI users. There are plenty of options of ANSI alone. But actually I'm not very concerned about that. I would rather concentrate on promoting Colemak to make that as mainstream as possible, and then have the add-on mods available for those who want them and/or have the centre-column problem.

So far as arguments over distance to L.Shift is concerned, I am increasingly of the opinion that the standard position of the shift keys is so terrible that it is better to use a different key (a thumb) for Shift. If I was an ANSI user, I think the best bet is to define Z on L.Shift, then use one of the Alt keys as Shift. Perhaps that's a change too far for most though. That option currently isn't even shown on the Mod-DH page, I'll have to add it.

I'm creating security software that incorporates virtual keyboards, and am puzzled *which* Mod-DH layout I should implement. Would you be able to enlighten me, please? I'm looking for a simple graphic showing shifted and unshifted key positions.

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You'll find what you're looking for here.

ISO is strongly recommended as it requires fewer trade-offs, like putting "z" in the center or moving the single quote key higher up. The Wide mod is not fundamentally all that different when it comes to the alphanumerics, only the middle column is altered very much. If you implement ISO with the Angle mod at least, you would not be unfaithful to what Colemak-DH is trying to achieve, though I would still say that the Wide mod is an essential piece of it.

It should be noted that, while there are great extensions to Colemak-DH courtesy of DreymaR and others, a layout can be called Colemak-DH if it simply moves the alphanumerics as shown at the top of this page. This leaves a lot of room for creativity and further improvement. When you see terms like "Colemak-CAW" and others thrown around, remember that they are making changes (sometimes far) beyond what you see on the "Mod-DH" page while keeping the alphanumeric shift. If you think the situation is confusing as it is, imagine if "Colemak-DH" referred to every conceivable user change! What we have here on the forums is not a monolithic immutable standard, but several useful modifications that can be applied or revised as you see fit for your own use case.

Is that a bit more clear?

Last edited by azuvix (09-Jul-2018 04:12:07)
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You'll find much more info in my Big Bag topic. :-)

stevep99 said:

I don't think there is any prospect of getting unified agreement on DH mods here

You'll be delighted to find that we did in fact get a unified DH mod! It's the one now featured in both SteveP's and my pages/topics. So we're in agreement concerning the DH mod itself, fortunately: D and H go on the old QWERTY C and M positions (not counting any Wide modifications).

Colemak-CAW is no mystery: "CA" is just CurlAngle, another name for Colemak-DH, and "W" stands for Wide. Since I use this combination, I made up a name for it. :-)

    Cmk-ISO-CurlAWide_90d_FShui.png?raw=1
    The Colemak-Curl(DH)-AngleWide, a.k.a. Colemak-CAW, ergo modded layout.

On my pages, I try to cut to the bone to avoid overwhelming newcomers, so I've fallen down on three (×2) main options; those who want more or less will have to look a little harder to find it:
• Colemak vanilla (ISO or ANSI – although an Angle mod is strongly recommended for ISO!)
• Colemak-DH (ISO with Angle-ISO mod; ANSI with Angle-Z mod)
• Colemak-CAW (Angle same as above; Wide-Slash for ISO and Wide-Quote for ANSI)

This means that I've made a few choices for people. The Wide mods, for instance, have some defaults: They are not quite as easily found without the Curl(DH) mod; they by default come with the = key between 6 and 7 (not 5 and 6 as some prefer); they have / (ISO) or ' (ANSI) in the old ] position by default. As for the Angle mods, some are left out of the "front page" but those variants have only a few users.

azuvix: Aren't you turning everything upside down, saying that there are "extensions" to Colemak-DH? Because it's the newest mod we have to my knowledge. First came Angle, Wide, Colemak[eD], Extend etc etc. I'd rather say that Colemak-DH very nicely complements the mod battery we've made over the years. You make it sound as if Colemak-DH is "THE" main mod, and the rest is options for it! Sounds rather silly if you ask me.

Last edited by DreymaR (09-Jul-2018 17:26:16)

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azuvix: Aren't you turning everything upside down, saying that there are "extensions" to Colemak-DH? Because it's the newest mod we have to my knowledge. First came Angle, Wide, Colemak[eD], Extend etc etc. I'd rather say that Colemak-DH very nicely complements the mod battery we've made over the years. You make it sound as if Colemak-DH is "THE" main mod, and the rest is options for it! Sounds rather silly if you ask me.

Pardon my ignorance then. I haven't been around long enough to know the chronology first-hand. The source of the confusion for me was that the Colemak Mod-DH page does not feature anything more than the alphanumeric changes, angle mod, and wide mod, with possiblities for different kinds of keyboard. Seeing how basic that is and knowing that Extend and other pieces can go well beyond those changes, I was under the impression that that page showed the absolute "bare minimum".

So yes, do pardon my mistake. But it does serve as further evidence that we have a confusing situation on our hands. :P

Last edited by azuvix (09-Jul-2018 19:38:01)
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Obviously. And I'm a bit sad now.

SteveP has made really nice web pages, escaping the forum format that I haven't been able to shirk so far. His pages are nice, clear, very hypertextual.

He has been concerned mainly with his own works, not with painting the big picture of things. I've tried to make a truly Big Bag to showcase my own contributions but also with a clear view on the works of the whole Colemak community in mind. Because where would we be without each other? The Big Bag is something I've put way too much effort into, but it contains so many contributions from the wonderful Colemak innovators and other contributors over the years, apart from the great Shai himself. Where would we be without Cevgar, Farkas Máté, Ghen, the Bépo gang, Karl Nordstrom,  ... and SteveP? Not the wonderful place we are today, that's for sure.

SteveP has been a Colemak contributor since 2014, and has done much good. But Colemak has been around since 2006 and I came in only a year after that. There's already quite a history to our favourite layout and its various bells and whistles!

But because SteveP has a snappier design and doesn't mention the rest of us much, people appear to forget or miss all that and think that all the bright minds that contributed are but a lemma to his part. That's disheartening. Ugh. :-(

Last edited by DreymaR (09-Jul-2018 22:47:44)

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Looking to that discussion and to the way virtual keyboards are implemented by wmcmeans, I would say that will be quite hard to come to consensus of how to introduce the Colemak-DH there. There is no one layout as for anything else, keys position in angle and wide mods depend of the keyboard type and if both mods are used or not.   
Not trying to belittle anybody contribution and chronology of innovations, my opinion that the only way to come with one Colemak-DH similar to one Colemak is to stick to ANSI keyboard and call letters moving without applying Angle-Wide "THE" main mod, and anything else "extensions". Exactly the thing that DreymaR is arguing against.
Do not beat me, I do not see other way to make it simple and understandable for newcomers.

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