Much greatness there. :-)

I'm not sure about the double-wide though! I think it may be a bridge too far. Too much work in the middle, no right-left flexibility in the middle anymore, and the right pinky is actually quite good at hitting for instance apostrophe as it is. Also, with Extend the even closer Enter key won't be really necessary I feel.

You say "ISO layout's extra key", but it's in the wrong position so that the Angle mod is impossible (or at least, as inconvenient as on ANSI boards), right? That's a major setback in my opinion!

Might it get confusing with a Del in the standard Back position?

If you want to bring ISO layout's shorter left Shift key into the discussion, it's easy… proposal in the OP is built around an existing mass-produced keyboard, that's available for purchase right now.

Although, an ISO/JIS hybrid is not purely hypothetical—there's the Brazilian layout (ABNT), basically ISO w/ split right Shift—but such keyboards are very rare, because Brazil simply isn't the tech giant, that Japan evolved into.

I didn't even start with Topre Realforce 91/108*, though. The first iteration of the layout was based on HHKB Pro JP (w/ hasu's replacement controller), which notably featured uniform 0.25u row stagger, i.e., something I'd strongly prefer to "Angle mod". Realforces have more appealing sound (and potentially tall spherical keycaps—HiPro), however, and the spacebar row has turned out better IMHO. In the end, Topre Realforce is one of the few "standard" keyboards, that I actually want.

If I were to build (yet another) custom keyboard, I wouldn't bother with wide or angle mods, and go straight for something actually symmetrical.

I have a Phantom in (modified) 7bit's layout, and kinda regret getting it.

• Alignment of the spacebar-row keys is hard to get right. Fortunately, my Phantom is almost the same as the realforce in the OP, except the spacebar is split into two keys (1.5u and 1u). It works the best with two-column hand separation too.

• Either ANSI, or ISO/JIS Enter is probably better than two smaller keys. In the end, I'd probably prefer ISO/JIS, although it's harder to stabilize and the keycap is much less common.

• I wish it had the right Shift split the other way around (JIS-like instead of Zenith-/HHKB-like). That's my biggest issue (and I can't change it without making a new plate and resoldering everything) and not quite relevant here (because the JIS layout is already assumed).

• I hate the Angle mod. As if the too big (0.5u) stagger wasn't enough, turning it into the other direction messes with access to the upper row. Nope, nope, nope…

• I'd rather have the Shift key closer (i.e., split left Shift, where the right key is 1.25u and the left one only 1u, sort of like on the other side on HHKB/Zenith). I can still change that with minimal resoldering, though.

All that said, it was a mistake… I could have spent the resources and effort on making a custom keyboard with a proper layout, not an ad-hoc hack like those angle/wide mods. Oh well…

back at the logitech mushy pea today

i take it back about the hyper and alt

the alts bloody awkward on this one too, just without the benefit of an extra key between it and the space

a standard space on an ISO keyboard is way too long

left alt should sit nicely under the left thumb in a perfect world, not a contortion under the palm of the hand

i'm starting to wonder whether the perfect keyboard is simply the one you decide to focus on to the exclusion of all others and make sure you use the same one everywhere, i.e. lots of great keyboards could be worse than consistently using an average keyboard?

I definitely don't agree with you, for two reasons:

1. Even with chords, you can comfortably use a thumb keys with another modifier key. For example, using my left-space-bar key as Shift, I can easily simultaneously hit Control (with a pinkie) or AltGr (with my right thumb) should I need to. In fact this operation is *easier* than it would be if I were using the standard Shift key.
2. I disapprove of the use of more than two simultaneous modifiers in general. Having some impossible to remember combination of 4 keys, e.g. Ctrl-Shift-Alt-X is silly. Maybe there are some programs that use such "shortcuts", but I'd say this is bad design. The most common commands should be on easy-to-remember shortcuts. After that, better to use some kind of search-by-feature-name.

So I'd say my thumb-key Shift solution is clear, simple—and right!!

So although we are talking about the "angle mod", there are really two different aspects:
1. moving the ZXCV key locations one space to the left
2. adopting a different technique so that your fingers move down-and-left instead of down-and-right.

From your first post about the angle mod, I assumed you were objecting to point 2, i.e. you prefer the "standard" typing technique. But then you said you "begrudgingly accept the alternative finger-key mapping with C pressed by the index finger". So that would suggest you are OK with using the different finger technique, but what you object to is point 1, moving the ZXCV keys.

I am sympathetic to point 1, moving the keys is a bit of pain, especially if you have an ANSI board. It makes C move to a worse position too. I resisted the angle mod for a long time for that reason. For Colemak users though, there is a tricky dilemma: (1) use the uncomfortable standard fingering technique (2) use the alternative fingering, which is more comfortable but overloads left index finger as you say, or (3) use the angle mod.

So we are once again talking about legacy of 1870s typewriter design and what is the least-worst way to deal with it. Of those three options, on a standard keyboard, I'd say the angle mod is the best available, closely followed by alternative fingering. Yes the angle mod requires moving of keys, but then, as keyboard layout fans, moving keys is our business and should not be feared if the benefit outweighs the cost! Leaving everything as-is and simply using the "standard technique" is the worst option of all, so terrible as to be a non-starter.

I don't think we're in a complete disagreement.

The point is that some modifiers are under pinkies and others under thumbs. The proposed JIS-based layout (or any layout, that I propose) has (more or less) symmetrically placed modifiers; their exact permutation is a subject to debate—I just stick to pinkie-controlled Shift keys, while putting Alt/Meta and others under thumbs/knuckles.

That's the issue. The user interfaces are already out there, and the user may stumble upon them without having much of a choice.

That's why I consider, for example, ANSI HHKB Pro extremely impractical under certain circumstances (such as having to use CUA software).

Good point.

It would be much clearer to use standard hardware-key positions' codes, say, from ISO/IEC 9995, instead of their default US QWERTY mappings. Well, at least if all parties were familiar with the standard.

Well, there's an obvious winner: a [hardware] layout, that isn't necessarily intertwined with Sholes' legacy.

(Intermezzo: Such an option seems rather unpopular around here, though. I shall flame you, guys, more. :evil:)

I maintain, that the best way to stay compatible with both kinds of layouts is to keep the muscle memory consistent: whole columns mapped to digits, and keeping columns straight (in some axis), i.e., not warped into some sort of an [non-trivial] arc.

There are compromises on multiple levels:

• Position of the Shift key (ANSI/ISO)—stevep99 might argue, that it shouldn't be a Shift key, but that's another story—ANSI has it adjacent to pinkie's resting position, which is also symmetrical in case of the proposed wide-mod layout, and that's not the case with ISO.

• Direction of columns (QWERTY QAZ, WSX,…), which is always an arc on legacy hardware layouts (except for some compact variants with 0.25u bottom-row relative stagger). What bothers me is a potential inflexion point, because it leads to even more motions to learn (moving the hand/finger in opposite directions laterally, when reaching for different rows).

• Digit-key (physical) mapping. ditto

The legacy layout is asymmetrical (unlike human body, basically). Even with all the mods.

I have posted a whole lot of typing videos. Have you?

I haven't stated otherwise. I do, however, argue against introducing the aforementioned inflexion point, because that isn't typical for human digits.

See the proposed layout in the OP.

Still don't quite understand, how you "type symmetrically" (as you claim), that's why I'm interested in the video.

Because—although my videos are far from perfect—I can show, that my wrists tend to be relatively straight, and my (rather average) upper arms/shoulders are relaxed. Certainly not the case of the contortions shown in this atrocious video.

For reference, the default JIS layout is explained here (Keyboard scancodes by Andries Brouwer).