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    I'm not switching from QWERTY

    • Started by jl
    • 13 Replies:
    • jl
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    • Registered: 02-Nov-2009
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    I thought I'd try learning Colemak. I'm quite tech savvy and I know Windows better than 95% of the population, but I had trouble installing Colemak. So I searched the forums, googled etc. I see that a lot of people have problems - with Windows login, with the layout not being applied to certain programs, with 64 bit Windows.

    I just spent the last 45 minutes frogging around trying to get it working properly. What a pain - even if Colemak is really more efficient, I'd probably have to type with it for ten years to make up for the time spent messing around trying to get the software patch to work. Dvorak is already on Windows, but apparently it's far more difficult to learn than Colemak. Add to that the hassles when using a friend's computer or when friends use mine, shortcuts other than zxcv, and trying to finger peck when I'm using my laptop in bed.

    It's the ultimate case of something that's more trouble than it's worth.

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    • Registered: 01-May-2009
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    I'm sorry you had difficulties.  In volunteer-run communities such as this, I believe they largely rely on people to report what problems they ran into.  Why did it take you 45 minutes to get Colemak to work properly?  What other potential problems worry you?  Colemak doesn't seem to be updated very often, and many of the fixes sometimes seem overly "tech savvy," but hey, it's a work in progress right?

    As for Colemak taking long to learn, that has not been everyone's experience, but you are free to read the many experiences and make as informed a judgment as you care to take the time to do.  You should keep in mind, though, that switching away from QWERTY may have long term benefits--sure they haven't been proven in a lab, but the hypothesis makes sense with what we would assume about hand usage etc.

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    • From: Houston, Texas
    • Registered: 03-Jan-2007
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    It's never hard to find reasons to not do something out of the mainstream.  What were your reasons for switching?

    I am not even a Windows user, would be happy to never use Windows,  haven't used Windows on a regular basis since Win95 in the 90's and I don't recall much trouble in getting Colemak working fine in WinXP on VMware Fusion on my Mac.  Of course, my reasons for having it were compelling enough to me that whatever difficulties I may have had were not enough to deter me from getting it done.

    It's fine that you don't feel it's worth the trouble, but it's all in the reasons you have for doing it.

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    • Registered: 27-Apr-2008
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    jl said:

    I thought I'd try learning Colemak. I'm quite tech savvy and I know Windows better than 95% of the population, but I had trouble installing Colemak. So I searched the forums, googled etc. I see that a lot of people have problems - with Windows login, with the layout not being applied to certain programs, with 64 bit Windows.

    I just spent the last 45 minutes frogging around trying to get it working properly. What a pain - even if Colemak is really more efficient, I'd probably have to type with it for ten years to make up for the time spent messing around trying to get the software patch to work. Dvorak is already on Windows, but apparently it's far more difficult to learn than Colemak. Add to that the hassles when using a friend's computer or when friends use mine, shortcuts other than zxcv, and trying to finger peck when I'm using my laptop in bed.

    It's the ultimate case of something that's more trouble than it's worth.

    Nice rant. However, you failed to mention what trouble you had installing Colemak, what version of Windows you are using and how you know you are more 'tech savvy' than 95% of the population. Your conclusion is incorrect as well because how would you know it's more trouble than it's worth if you never learnt it?

    A couple of things need pointing out too. First, the shortcuts other than zxcv. What do you expect? You attempted to learn an optimized layout. Of course keys will move. As it happens it presents no real difficulty. Once Colemak has been learnt you will easily be able to press control with one hand and the required key with the other. No looking at the keyboard needed. I do it all the time.

    Second, using other peoples computers. If they are using Windows, then Portable Keyboard Layout is great here. You save the program on their computer and execute the binary when you need to. When finished you close the program. Nothing is installed. No hassle for anyone.

    Third, finger pecking. Turn Colemak off.

    After using Colemak for over a year and a half, I can assure you that it is worth any trouble you may have gone through.

    Last edited by simonh (02-Nov-2009 11:31:52)

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I'd wager that 80% of young men 'are better than 95% of the population'. The maths don't quite add up on that one.

    Be that as it may, I don't think it's more trouble than it's worth if you think about it. How much time will you be spending typing through your lifetime versus the initial investment? To me, the answer is 'so much that even a minor improvement will be worth a lot of effort'. And to me it's been more fun than hard work anyway.

    I second Simonh: At first, try it out with PKL. I use that even on my main machines now! You just need to put a shortcut to the binary in your Startup folder and it'll run automatically. PKL doesn't work with absolutely everything but it's perfect for most things.

    Windows logon? Well duh, you should see that one coming. I make my passwords so they're layout invariant to be on the safe side, but it's not that hard to avoid the problem in other ways if you're more than moderately 'tech savvy'.

    Jl: If you're not ready for a great life hack, don't sweat it. You're in good company. But don't diss it more than it deserves before you've actually tried it for real.

    Otherwise, see my BOARD WARS picture...   ;)

    Last edited by DreymaR (02-Nov-2009 14:59:18)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    • Registered: 30-Jan-2009
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    As far as the windows login being a problem... it is much less of an issue with Colemak than with Dvorak.
    To make a Dvorak login that works in qwerty, you have to use 'a', 'm', number keys, etc.
    At least with Colemak there are many other keys to choose from that are still the same in qwerty!

    Thanks,
    Mark.

    Last edited by Nobodo (02-Nov-2009 20:05:22)
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    • Registered: 12-Aug-2008
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    My laptop has a fingerprint scanner which has made the login problem null. Not that a QWERTY password really bothered me; I didn't change my keys from QWERTY or anything.

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    • Registered: 17-Mar-2008
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    Don't feed the trolls, people.

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    • From: London
    • Registered: 29-Sep-2009
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    If you can't fix this problem, why not turn it to your advantage? Use the Qwerty layout whenever you are setting or entering system passwords, but hit the keys as if Colemak were running.

    E.g. Suppose you want to use "MyPassword".
    Typing that in Colemak while the Qwerty layout is active results in: "MoRaddw;sg"

    Voila, you've not only solved the problem, you've turned a crap password into a pretty secure one that is easy to remember and type in.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Oh dear, Raj - that's a stroke of genius! An epiphany even!  :D

    I'll still be making really odd passwords that are the same in Colemak and QWERTY I guess. It helps against the problem of which layout you use before logging onto Windows versus when unlocking your machine. I once changed the logon layout to Colemak but when the IT guy came to fix my computer I realized that it was a horrible idea - he nearly gave up and left me with a broken rig!  :o

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    DreymaR said:

    Oh dear, Raj - that's a stroke of genius! An epiphany even!  :D

    I'll still be making really odd passwords that are the same in Colemak and QWERTY I guess. It helps against the problem of which layout you use before logging onto Windows versus when unlocking your machine. I once changed the logon layout to Colemak but when the IT guy came to fix my computer I realized that it was a horrible idea - he nearly gave up and left me with a broken rig!  :o

    The layout in effect when you're trying to unlock your Windows machine is the same as your logon layout (i.e., QWERTY), regardless of what the layout is once you've unlocked.  And if your logon layout is QWERTY, Rajagra's suggestion is a valid (and epiphanic) approach.  You will not pay a penalty when unlocking.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Oh - has that been the case in earlier WinXP as well? Because I seem to remember otherwise but I haven't had a layout dependent password in a while now.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    DreymaR said:

    Oh - has that been the case in earlier WinXP as well? Because I seem to remember otherwise but I haven't had a layout dependent password in a while now.

    Yes, I have an XP box at work for which lockout layout is definitely QWERTY, the logon layout.  Learned it the hard way after trying to unlock by painstakingly typing my (non-layout-invariant) password in Colemak, and realizing with some relief that that wasn't necessary.  I only needed to learn my password in one layout, even if that layout wasn't Colemak.

    Layout-invariant passwords are probably OK for home use.  For work, they curtail one's choices pretty drastically by taking many letters out of play: f p g j l u y ; r s t d n e i o k.  Especially hard when policy dictates you have to change passwords periodically.

    Finally: If you are going to use a layout-invariant password, never ever advertise it so blithely!  Colemak is not a backwater anymore, and you're just making life easy for a savvy cracker by willingly shrinking your pool of passwords.

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    I like using "Colemak in Qwerty" passwords, where the password is something that I can quickly type in Colemak and I type it as if I were on a Colemak layout, but I switch the input to Qwerty (because often it is easier to switch to Qwerty than vice versa). Particularly with o being ; in Qwerty, very simple passwords can look quite "secure" (to login systems that check such things) while being easy to memorize. Again, something a savvy cracker could program around, but in this case you aren't shrinking your input supply and instead you are merely obfuscating dictionary attacks, at best making them harder to run...

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