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pafkata90 said:

I'd chose alternation over rolls any day. I'm curious to see your final layout nimbo. If you decide to keep most of the more common shortcut keys on the left hand side, I might even give it a try. I'm talking about the keys Z, C, V, X, W, T, Y, D, E - in order of importance for me. At least those are the ones I use. Another thing I liked about your "mirrored" Imak was that the vowels and the punctuation symbols are on the right which leaves more consonant on the left. I need those for some programs I use.
So I'll see which layouts you end up deciding to "release" and I may give one a shot at the end of the summer.

Again, very good job.


For all the layouts that I have built and tried I used to keep the shortcuts in place because using Microsoft keyboard Layout creator I can build any layout over QWERTY and once I click CTRL the layout would behave as QWERTY. This is of course under windows, but I wonder if it can be done under any linux redistribution.

Now I said I am going to talk about the problem that I faced in almost all the layouts that I have tested and it is the same problem.

I am a guy that likes to rest his hand on the laptop keyboard and as I am currently away from home I do not usually have access to a PC to customize it with my own keyboard, so I would say that I am rather stuck with my Dell D620 keyboard. Very often I like to sleep on my belly and type, so there is no way of hovering my hands at this position. Now the problem I faced was only with the right hand and it was that after a long period of typing while my right hand is resting on the keyborad the area ,in the image below,indicated with a red circle which is the bony side of the hand becomes very red. It doesn't cause any pain to the wrist but I expect that after a while the skin in this area will be dead skin as some of you might have experienced from weight lifting, and before this happens ones tend to experience some skin irritation. I actually know the cause of the problem, and know the solution(s). But let us come to the cause of the problem, now suppose that the right hand is hand that is pressing the spacebar as in my case, then it turns out that there are two very important keys that contribute to solving this problem for the hand that presses the spacebar. Referring to QWERTY, the two keys are H and Y. Hitting the H key regularly pulls the hand inward and distributes the weight evenly on the right hand palm. The Y key on the other hands force the user to stretch there hand or most of the time move it, which removes pressures from that area for a while which helps the hand to recover. Now it turned out that it is sufficient to have a key of the weight of H in that position as in Colemak or to have two keys of the weight of  f and d in the position of Y and H respectively as in dvorak. An even when I used to train for words on dvorak  that did not contain d and f this problem would appear again but when I type regular text it goes away. That is one of the main reason I mirrored Imak, as I wanted the right hand fingers to move beyond the home key more regularly and I wanted to have the option to correct this problem if it occurred again. Now I have L and V  in place of H and y and if this did not work I can replace V with W. I expect this problem to occur even for people who hit the spacebar with their left hand and do not hover their hand. If you look at dvorak, the left hand will be no problem for a person that hits the spacebar with his left hand because dvorak has i and y to pull the hand inward, and even Colemak has d and g. So, I will end up with creating three layouts, one for people that hit the spacebar with the left hand, and one for the people that hit the space par with the right hand and and optimized (best version) for ones that hover their hand . I really do not want to replace Y and T on QWERTY with middle weight letters as I think that this is the position that creates a lot of fatigue on the hand due to the excessive stretch of the index  finger for people that place their hand on the keyboard. Mirroring Imak has given me the change to distribute the keys in better manner and to create better combos that might lift the hand while typing( like and) and I hope this would solve the problem. other solution to the problem could be to

1- learn to hover my right hands, and avoid typing for long hours while asleep

2- even putting a pad under my right hand.

3- another thing that I could do is either to put on the right hand side on the home row

oaeih ( I like this better because I do no like the roll 'he' to be very narrow between the pinky and the index finger on  the right hand )
or
oaieh

Which one do you think is better knowing that the digram he is very common?

Finally, I think I will stick to the final version of Imak if it proved to solve the problem.

palmhand.jpg

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Meanwhile i've forgotten the QWMLWY layout uppsss.. but it has given me
an idea related to my damn nuisance "you" ... apart from the same finger
combo B-O, and all other stuff that i have totally ignored because
i don't know how to fix..

but on the other hand, may i get now a lot of other issues,
so therefore my question is the layout below to worse?

QWLFG --- PYUB;
ARSTD --- HNEOI'
ZXCVJ --- KM,./

here the numbers for http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,37,32,33,24,20,21,46,38,25,26,27,28,29,18,30,19,31,34,47,17,23,22,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,35,36,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60

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noctua said:

Meanwhile i've forgotten the QWMLWY layout uppsss.. but it has given me
an idea related to my damn nuisance "you" ... apart from the same finger
combo B-O, and all other stuff that i have totally ignored because
i don't know how to fix..

but on the other hand, may i get now a lot of other issues,
so therefore my question is the layout below to worse?

QWLFG --- PYUB;
ARSTD --- HNEOI'
ZXCVJ --- KM,./

here the numbers for http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,37,32,33,24,20,21,46,38,25,26,27,28,29,18,30,19,31,34,47,17,23,22,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,35,36,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60

This layout should reduce the pressure on your right hand significantly since you have remove the bad combo le and you. On the other hand you have increased the same finger ration and multiple jump ratio due to the common digrams or digraphs cl, ph , hy, ft, bo, sl, and my. Also the combo be is much slower than eb, but in general and in terms of comfortability for the right hand side, this way it is more comfortable, with slight increase burden on the right hand which should be no trouble. Moreover, you could achieve the same effect with less same finger ratio as

0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,37,32,16,33,35,20,21,24,38,25,26,27,28,29,18,30,19,31,34,47,17,22,23,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,36,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60

I advise you either to try dvorak, Imak (balanced), or Imakfantom (if you want to keep punctuation in same place). I currently use dvorak and testing Imakfantom, and at a speed of 30 WPM the layout is comfortable.

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huhh.. same finger, same hand, frequencie of charactes, short distance....
makes it difficult, i see it now, thanks nimbo. all this stuff may feel calmer
for the fingers.. but not really in sense for an comfortable typing of words
means stroke paths.. here begins the "advantage" of all this stuff above
to become very.. small ;)

i've picked only the stroke-path "you", there exist some more on the
colemak layout..

i'm not sure if the stroke-paths are "nicer" on dvorak, it looks for me strange..
but i've observed one typist at typeracer that has his speed increased
since he switched to dvorak.. hmm my avg is way above +80 (peak +110)wpm
after one year with colemak..

fussy at a high level?

Last edited by noctua (09-Jul-2011 22:49:52)
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noctua said:

huhh.. same finger, same hand, frequencie of charactes, short distance....
makes it difficult, i see it now, thanks nimbo. all this stuff may feel calmer
for the fingers.. but not really in sense for an comfortable typing of words
means stroke paths.. here begins the "advantage" of all this stuff above
to become very.. small ;)

i've picked only the stroke-path "you", there exist some more on the
colemak layout..

i'm not sure if the stroke-paths are "nicer" on dvorak, it looks for me strange..
but i've observed one typist at typeracer that has his speed increased
since he switched to dvorak.. hmm my avg is way above +80 (peak +110)wpm
after one year with colemak..

fussy at a high level?

In fact in few weeks typing the you on dvorak will be very comfortable and fast. ln general, the layout is very comfortable sine it is alternating and the the bigrams are usually separated by two keys, so the roll will not be very tight on the hand. Of course, first you will feel some tension in the right hand pinky due to "sl" but it will wear away gradually and after a month the layout will become the most comfortable layout that you have ever tried.

Now since you are typing at a high average, I wonder if your aim is to get more speed or to type comfortably. Personally, I think that if you are a programmer an average of 60 WPM is enough for you because most of the time in programming is spent in thinking. However, if you want to take notes quickly then an average of 80 WPM is enough, and if you want to type at the same speed that people talk, then you need an average of around 120 WPM.

After one year of typing on Colemak as you said, and if the layout feels natural and you type comfortably then I think there is no point to switch to any other layout, and it will almost take you around the same time to reach this speed with any layout, but the difference will be the effort that each layout requires and the amount of practicing time. However, if the layout is still bugging you and you want to type comfortably, then I think instead of doing slight modification, one should try a completely different layout that has different design perspective and the wise thing, especially if you do not have time, is to start with a layout that have been tested before such as dvorak. Also, it is better to retain your ability of typing with the old layout if the new layout didn't appeal to you, and to do this start your day by typing with the old layout for a half an hour and end your day by typing until you reach your average - 10 WPM, and you should not practice the new layout more than 2 to 3 hours each day. Finally to improve the speed of dvorak, I modified it and designed  IDvorak which I think it  will be with Imakfantom, Imak the fastest layouts out there.

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Ideally each person with different finger lengths and finger strengths should personalize their own keyboard layout.

But that trying and error process costs so much time.

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yes, tony that's the point, my pinky's are a way shorter..
the kinesis advantage for example has the pinky-rows
lower located than the rest.. and if this also not help
may we have to modify an layout or try another one..
that true, this process cost much time!

Last edited by noctua (11-Jul-2011 07:21:34)
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nimbostratue: i've used the analyzer.. it seems Imak (punctuation on the right side)
use the right (to much) compared to the IDvorak..  but Imak has some nice fast
stroke pahts.. at first view. No idea how it feels on fast typing, because i try
only slow.. without the help of muscle memory ;)

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noctua said:

nimbostratue: i've used the analyzer.. it seems Imak (punctuation on the right side)
use the right (to much) compared to the IDvorak..  but Imak has some nice fast
stroke pahts.. at first view. No idea how it feels on fast typing, because i try
only slow.. without the help of muscle memory ;)

If you mean Imak(punctuation on the right side) is the one that I mentioned on your thread that I was testing and stopped due to the formerly mentioned problem, then I think that you are for sure wrong. The layout, same as with the one that I adopt with punctuation on the left side is completely balanced between the two hands and I am sure that you have done some mistake while running your analysis :). Anyway, the only version I adopt is the one with punctuation on the left side and is called Imak-balanced from now on. On the other hand if you mean Imakfantom which I mentioned in the last post in this thread https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1123&p=2 , which also contains the punctuation on the right side but with the formerly mentioned problem corrected (for the time being), then this is layout is biased to the right hand similar as dvorak and in most analysis that I have run it turned out that it has slightly less bias than dvorak, which is good, but of course for a limited number of texts it turned out to be slightly more biased than dvorak to the right side, so I suggest that you review your analysis or tell me how you did it so I can check it for you. Anyway, Imakfantom is now called Imak-biased and is the current layout that I am practicing along with dvorak. I am still at around 30 wpm cuz i do not practice more than 1 hour a day to maintain dvorak and many days I do not practice at all and try to stay away from computers in favor of swimming. But I should say that Imak-biased should actually be comfortable on the right hand because the combos are nice and there are no tight rolls, and till now it feels for me better than dvorak, but I have to wait until I reach the speed of dvorak, which would take some time if I kept going like an ant.

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nimbostratue said:
noctua said:

nimbostratue: i've used the analyzer.. it seems Imak (punctuation on the right side)
use the right (to much) compared to the IDvorak..  but Imak has some nice fast
stroke pahts.. at first view. No idea how it feels on fast typing, because i try
only slow.. without the help of muscle memory ;)

If you mean Imak(punctuation on the right side) is the one that I mentioned on your thread that I was testing and stopped due to the formerly mentioned problem, then I think that you are for sure wrong. The layout, same as with the one that I adopt with punctuation on the left side is completely balanced between the two hands and I am sure that you have done some mistake while running your analysis :). Anyway, the only version I adopt is the one with punctuation on the left side and is called Imak-balanced from now on. On the other hand if you mean Imakfantom which I mentioned in the last post in this thread https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1123&p=2 , which also contains the punctuation on the right side but with the formerly mentioned problem corrected (for the time being), then this is layout is biased to the right hand similar as dvorak and in most analysis that I have run it turned out that it has slightly less bias than dvorak, which is good, but of course for a limited number of texts it turned out to be slightly more biased than dvorak to the right side, so I suggest that you review your analysis or tell me how you did it so I can check it for you. Anyway, Imakfantom is now called Imak-biased and is the current layout that I am practicing along with dvorak. I am still at around 30 wpm cuz i do not practice more than 1 hour a day to maintain dvorak and many days I do not practice at all and try to stay away from computers in favor of swimming. But I should say that Imak-biased should actually be comfortable on the right hand because the combos are nice and there are no tight rolls, and till now it feels for me better than dvorak, but I have to wait until I reach the speed of dvorak, which would take some time if I kept going like an ant.


i've played with this, https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?pid=8148#p8148 -- "Imakfantom",
for example "forever" is here an very nice stroke path also "you" (thanks ;)), in contrast "bloke" is
not.. you know ;)

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I’ve been on Colemak for 35 days and as I am starting to reach better speeds (averaging ~70 WPM, peaking to 80 WPM), I have found that the “you” trigram still gives me a lot of trouble. I’ve been thinking about remapping Y somewhere else to help with the problem. The two letters I have thought about switching with Y are W and F. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency those three are close in terms of frequency.

I don’t want to learn a completely new layout like Imak if at all possible, but I would like to find a way to make “you” better to type if possible. Does anyone have any suggestions? Should I just remap Y to different keys and see how it feels? My one other concern is harming things like the same-finger ratio; I didn’t see that the pator.jk.com site analyzed that aspect. How is it best to check things like that?

Finally, on a different note, has anyone tried to create a Colemak variant that achieves more hand alternation without losing the other advantages? It sounds somewhat like Imak is an attempt at that. Does anyone have any hard data on how Imak/such a Colemak-A variant compares specifically? I’m loathe to make any changes absent hard data.

Thanks for the help!

EDIT:

While typing, I remembered that the other two-letter combination I have difficulty with is "dg" (or "gd," but I don't think that is at all common). So typing things like judge are always difficult for me. I tend to reach for them in reverse order, e.g. jugde. Would there be any obvious disadvantage to switching Y and G? According to the Wikipedia article they are directly next to each other in terms of frequency. I can't think of any obvious disadvantages to that, but I'm curious if anyone else can see a potential problem.

Last edited by Legolan (13-Jul-2011 11:12:14)
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Actually, I have no trouble with words like 'you'. But it may be that you're in a phase where your little finger isn't trained well enough yet. It may take longer to get it up to scratch.

I wouldn't fret too much about a few words. The important thing is the overall flow of typing.

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Yes, I can see your point with that. I still feel like my accuracy is far too low (89-95% when I do speed focused typing), so I probably need to work more on that before it's really possible to say regarding things like "you."

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For the 'gd' and 'dg' digraphs alternative fingering will help but that's only necessary at expert level really. For both digraphs you may move the hand in to use the middle finger for 'g', and on many keyboards (typically not laptop boards!) you could also slide your index finger for 'gd' (but since this trick isn't always available I don't use it myself).

It's very useful for typing digraphs like 'nk' and 'lk' I think... ink think thank thunk funk punk ... yes, very nice!  :)

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Honestly, I don't see a reason why only an "expert" should try this bg alternative fingering :) It took me very little time to start using it and I didn't even train that specifically. Just.. started using it. And I think it's so easy that you don't need to be a high level typist or whatever. Anyway, try, if it's not for you, don't use it ;)
DaymaR, the 'nk' is actually cool. Haven't thought of that. I was just thinking yesterday of different alternative techniques that may be used with Colemak, but I was on my way to work and forgot it when I came back home :D. I think I'm gonna use that as well, thanks ;)

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I guess 'expert' is a wrong term, sorry. What I meant to say is that I don't consider it necessary for the more casual users or beginners that don't want to take on too much at once. Anyone with a moderate or stronger dedication should benefit.  :)

The 'expert' level is in my opinion where you start learning to type individual words. From just learning the feel of your layout, you start to train how to type common words (whether by conscious effort or just because you type a lot of words). This will lead to some novel fingerings and the like.

I've grown slowly into these techniques which is probably the easiest way of doing it. Everything at once could be stressful. And it's probably an individual call just how much alternative fingering to use. Typing 'lk' the classical way is murder and 'nk' is very common so those are no-brainers to me. Hadn't given 'gd' any thought but when I tried it out I did move in so I guess I've been doing that without thinking about it.

Here's a thought for the layout designers, now. I don't think the upper row positions for the middle and ring fingers are bad at all because those fingers are so long that in my case at least they spend their idle time between the home and upper row! And because it's so easy to float in, digraphs like 'nk'/'kn', 'hn'/'nh' and the more rare 'tb'/'bt'/'td'/'dt' (and likely 'lh'/'hl'/'gd'/'dg' while we're at it) shouldn't really be considered awful and punished as same-finger digraphs I feel. And probably some other things I can't recall right now. So layout design becomes more complex and the simple algorithms fail because the assumptions are too rigid. It illustrates how you need to actually use a layout for quite a while before you're ready to pass proper judgement on it - which again makes layout design a lot harder unfortunately...

Last edited by DreymaR (03-Aug-2011 08:49:14)

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I'm curious how you do the alternative fingering for those different digraphs. I've tried it out a few ways and I'm not sure what's best (or even 100% what you're trying to advise one should do). How specifically do you type things like lk, nk, kn, etc? Is there a list anywhere of alternative fingerings that people use? I'm curious because it seems like it could really help, but I'm not quite sure how to start trying it....

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With the lk, nk, your index finger is on the K, and the middle is on the upper letter. The same goes for the rest - your index finger hits the lower letter, and the middle - the upper. Basically how you feel comfortable.
As for such a list with alternative fingering - I highly doubt there is, or at least I couldn't find one. Te best source of ideas on what you could work on, if you want, is the post before yours ;)
I think the best way of start learning it is after you feel certain about your typing (I mean no hesitations...) start trying one by one while typing a text. After you get comfortable with one, try another. That's what I'm doing at least :)

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Okay. Thanks for the advice; I'll do that then. It certainly will be an interesting experiment to try! Out of curiosity, how well has it been working for you?

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It's just like typing 'ed' (or to a lesser extent, other digraphs like 'de', 'ki', or 'lo') on a QWERTY keyboard, you just have to do it less often :D

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Well I've been using only bg, bd and dg - basically if my index finger is on V or B, and the next letter is comfortable for the middle, I go for it. And I had no trouble getting used to them. Now I'm trying to get used to kn and kl (or nk and lk). Maybe I should take my own advice and concentrate on just one of the two because while I'm typing very often I miss words with them and I write it the "classical" way.
Btw if you want, you can make a lesson with some words that have the ones you're working on. Load it in Amphetype and practice a little bit. If I don't get any progress with plain text typing, I'm gonna do the same :)

Last edited by pafkata90 (05-Aug-2011 19:59:54)
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It would be cool to make a list of these alternative fingerings.

The only one I use consistently is "dt" because it appears a lot in Danish (but I also feel I should train standard rolls more besides these extra things; for example I just noticed I typed "a, p, p, e, ar, s" instead of "a, p, p, e, ars").

I have a special case alt. fingering: pdf... it's just like typing ftw except one to the right :-)

I think I'll try to start using "kn", that one is nice.


DreymaR said:

Here's a thought for the layout designers, now. I don't think the upper row positions for the middle and ring fingers are bad at all because those fingers are so long that in my case at least they spend their idle time between the home and upper row!

That's where Maltron/Kinesis/Truly Ergonomic come in... Even something like the Maltron 2D should be possible on laptops.

But even on my Kinesis I think WF and UY are the most comfortable keys besides the eight home keys.

DreymaR said:

layout design becomes more complex and the simple algorithms fail because the assumptions are too rigid. It illustrates how you need to actually use a layout for quite a while before you're ready to pass proper judgement on it

Or just make more advanced algorithms, of course!

But not that I disagree :-)

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erw said:

That's where Maltron/Kinesis/Truly Ergonomic come in... Even something like the Maltron 2D should be possible on laptops.

The Truly Ergonomic keyboard was actually made finally? I thought they went out of business before they ever made any real keyboards.

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I don't know really, I was just referring to the way it looks in pictures.

According to this thread on geekhack they seem to exist still: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?2010 … -July-2011

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Ahhhh, I understand. I lost focus in the thread and thought it was physical choice, not as a physical reference.

I would like a Maltron 2D on a laptop.

I agree with you on 'WFUY' keys being comfy on a Kinesis Contoured.

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