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What single change would improve QWERTY the most?

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Offtopic messages deleted. If there's an off-topic message, please refrain from replying, flag and move on. Thanks

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Seeing as this thread was necro'd not too long ago, I'll take the opportunity to revisit alternate Qwerty Fingering. But, you know, with pictures.

In short:

Alternate Qwerty Fingering Layout



Alternate Qwerty Fingering Analysis Results


The distance model does effectively nothing for same finger reduction, and the same finger reduction model HAMMERS the left ring finger unless one uses the pinkie for ES digraphs. Both models make L.Shift and Enter about as awkward as R.Shift is normally.

R.Pinkie would have done slightly better on ; but the text analysed was heavy on quotation marks and HIO; is less comfortable.

I didn't bother with thumbs this time, because using the left thumb makes L.Shift even worse, and is a moot point on the right when using HIOP fingering., simply put, this fingering is awkward enough as is.


EDIT: Analysed text was "Thoughtcrime Experiments", a collection of 9 short stories by various authors, released in 2009.
View Results directly: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-anal … d/C2Mj1Djl

EDIT: Corrected the SameFinger model, swapping Y to L.Index. Updated fingering diagram, graphs, percentages and links.

Last edited by cevgar (04-Apr-2017 20:04:42)
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According to my AdnW analyser, the best 2-letter swap is L - E   Mind, this is according to the AdnW-ideals, which are partly the same as Colemak's, but differ in that
- AdnW wants to avoid " adjacent keys" (qwerty AS is seen as bad, AD is seen as better)
- AdnW prefers alternation over rolls.

Anyway, here are the metrics (tested on English text corpus)

QWERTY           576.383 Gesamtaufwand  338.719 Lageaufwand        links rechts
                   6.804 Kollisionen      6.299 Shift-Kollisionen  ob 28.0 20.2
  qwert yuiop[    52.755 Handwechsel     41.474 Shift-Handwechsel  mi 22.1  9.5
  asdfg hjkl;'     1.080 Ein-/Auswärts   11.226 IndirKollision     un  6.8 13.3
  zxcvb nm,./     21.628 benachbart      12.586 Shift-benachbart  sum 56.9 43.1
                  9.1  8.4 18.5 20.9 --.- --.- 18.4  8.9 12.1  3.6 Sh  1.1  1.7

QwLrty       497.365 Gesamtaufwand  306.693 Lageaufwand        links rechts
                   3.897 Kollisionen      6.070 Shift-Kollisionen  ob 20.2 20.2
  qwlrt yuiop[    58.837 Handwechsel     40.532 Shift-Handwechsel  mi 22.1 17.3
  asdfg hjke;'     1.075 Ein-/Auswärts   11.858 IndirKollision     un  6.8 13.3
  zxcvb nm,./     12.121 benachbart      19.351 Shift-benachbart  sum 49.2 50.8
                  9.1  8.4 10.7 20.9 --.- --.- 18.4  8.9 19.9  3.6 Sh  1.1  1.7

QwLrty is better than Qwerty:
- Kollisionen (same finger% ) is down from 6.8% to 3.9%
- Alternation is up from 52.7% to 58.8%
- The percentage of key strokes on adjacent keys is down from 21.6% to 12.1%. This is due to the very common digrams WE and ER. Those are on adjacent keys in Qwerty, but no longer in QwLrty
- hand balance is much better: from 56.9 (left) / 43.1 (right)  to 49.2 (left) / 50.8 (right)
- it's still not ideal of course (how could it with only 2 keys swapped).

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... I suppose everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but for the life of me I cannot conceive a plausible reason to reduce adjacent key use on a modern keyboard (Typewriters had different restraints, such as heavier key weight, longer key action, possible jamming, lack of error correction, etc). The best I can come up with are diagonally adjacent keys, such as DR (which would be suitable covered with a 'row change without hand alternation' metric)... but from your description the focus is on digraphs such as AS and ER, which are both blindingly fast rolls in Qwerty.

I'd be interested to hear the justification of this design choice.

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@cevgar The idea is that especially pinky-ring (or ring-middle) is cumbersome, because the lower independency of these two fingers.  ER is less of a problem, since index and middle are both strong and they are independent.

For me, I agree with the AdnW/Dvorak "adjacent finger theory" - to me, ring-index feels better than middle-index. But I also found that it highly depends on the keyboard. On flat keyboards with little travel, such as laptop keyboards, adjacent keys do not feel bad.  In other words, on a modern laptop, rolls feel nice. But on keyboards with more travel, rolls feel less nice.

I think it is one of those things you should really try out. I have tried several layouts, some installed on my laptop (Colemak, various MTGAP versions, Dvorak, AdnW), some I tried in the browser, such as Capewell and the Carpalx versions. To me, AdnW felt best, followed by Dvorak. 

tl;dr: it depends on your hands and on the keyboard you type on.

Edit: I remember reading somewhere that it has to do with "rolling"  the hand. If you type (qwerty) AD, you may slightly ' wiggle' your hands, in addition to the fingers moving. The combination of those movements makes that pinky-middle combo easier than AS, where you have less "lever" since the fingers are closer.

Last edited by pieter (31-Aug-2015 09:51:01)
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It's more complex than any models I've seen allow for. A good model should at least allow for assessing roll types.

For me (numbering fingers from index=1):
– 4-3 > 3-2 (like you say)
– 2-3 > 3-4 though (outward bigrams)
– 4-2 is good; 4-3-2 is even better! (inward roll)
– 2-4 is not so good; 2-3-4 is only slightly better (outward roll)
– 2-4-3/4-2-3 are so-so (mixed rolls/jumps)
etc etc.

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That is 4-2 > 3-2 (like you say) I suppose, right ?  I agree with most, only to me 2-4 is better than 2-3-4

To add one more element, how do you feel about 'waves'? This is what I call a movement that flows left- right- left over the keyboard. On a Colemak board a word like INTASTE or, less extreme, words like PRINT and LIST.  In these cases, a "mixed roll' such as 2-4-3 does not bother me so much, as long as the "wave" keeps rolling in that direction.....

Mixed rolls you can put in a model (I believe it already IS partly in the AdnW-model, and also in the MTGAP model). But waves are harder to model. You need 4, 5 or even 6-gram analysis  (is that tetragram, pentagram and hexagram?) that is, you would need to look at 4, 5 or 6-letter combinations. In the analysers I know of (AdnW, Mtgap and carpalx) only letterfrequencies (=1-grams), 2-grams and sometimes 3-grams are considered.

At the same time I think such an analysis would not add much. As some of you may know, keyboards are compromises. I could design a keyboard with many inward rolls (actually, the Mtgap software makes this sort of experiments easy).  But it will come at a price: bad load balance over fingers and hands, more home row jumps, more same finger, etcetera. Likewise, i could design the lowest same finger keyboard in the world. I'm sure it would suck at for instance alternation, or have all rolls outward, etc.

There is a league of good layouts, that have found some middle ground, that is, that perform good on some aspects and well enough on others. Colemak, Dvorak, MTGAP, Carpalx, Aus der Neo Welt (AdnW), Balance12.....   The 'battle' between layout fans is a nice pastime, in which I sure like to participate! Because, you know, of course my custom AdnW layout is muuuuch better than your stock Colemak !!!!  ;-)    But to be honest, it's like fighting if Volvo is better than Audi or the other way around ! ...

Edit: typos

Last edited by pieter (01-Sep-2015 13:36:02)
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davkol said:

For the record, Gentner (1983 or 1988 article, not sure which one) observed, that each keystroke was generally affected by three preceding and one succeeding keystroke.

Thanks ! :-)

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Interesting, both the wave concept (to which I agree at least partially) and the Gentner result!

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Suzzy said:

If you could only make one change to the QWERTY layout (for instance, swapping K and O), what would it be and why?


Swap J & A

Based on my recent epiphany, pinky usage should be reduced to the minimum. The pinky is the weakest key, thus the most prone to stress and damage.

I can attest to that personally. I have used Dvorak for many years, but in recent years I noticed my right pinky getting painful, as if bent too much. At first I thought it was caused by the mice, because it's solely operated by the right hand, and the possibly improper gripping with the pinky. However, very recently, like in the past week, it just occurred to me that the keyboard layout is the culprit for the pain on my pinky. I rummaged through my old notes that compared my custom layouts to the other standard or popular layouts, and one thing that stood out was how over worked the right pinky was. This then made me realize that this could be the reason why my right pinky felt like it cracked.

I've designed several input layouts as a hobby, for desktop keyboards and smartphones/tablets/handheld devices, so I'm always trying to find the most ergonomic and efficient layouts for the corresponding device. I'm totally satisfied with the tablet layouts. However, the desktop keyboards has never satisfied me completely. Although one particular layout does excel in all the metrics compared to standard or popular layouts. But I don't use it because it still feels wrong for some reason. And now I know why.

At first I also mimicked the theories and algorithms and thought patterns of others on keyboard design. Dvorak, Colemak, Maltron, Workman, Klausler, Arensito, etc. all seem pretty great. But they all have the same flaws: overemphasis on the pinkies. My initial layouts also, of course, had the same flaws. Mostly this was due to the praise of the so-called home row. Another flaw of the home row is the overemphasis of the key in the center that requires stretching the index finger. Likewise, this overstresses the index finger in the other direction. (Hence the germination of the Norman/Workman layout to reduce index finger stretching. Some of my layouts have also learned from this.)

Therefore, I have concluded to abandon the home row and try to find another set of keys to call home. As a result, my latest layout designs do not put the top 10 letters on the pinky or the inner index keys. Instead I do declare the home block: ring, middle, and index keys on the top, middle, and bottom rows. These 9 keys shall serve as the core of my new layouts, instead of the 5 keys of the former home row. I have tested it some, and so far it feels great to relieve my pinky from being overworked. The other three fingers are strong and agile enough to pick up the slack.

So back to the original question. I would swap J and A. A being under the pinky is a huge no-no. Since it is a very common letter, it should never be put on the pinky key. Pinkies are also quite bad on rolls and back-and-forth trigrams. On the contrary, J taking up a great spot right under the index finger, should be claimed by the most common letters only, such as A. This swap would cut pinky usage by a huge margin. Left pinky usage is reduced from 10% to less than 1%, and total of both pinky usage drops from 9% to 2%.

For similar reasons, other decent swaps would be A-K, H-J, T-K, J-N.

I must disagree with everyone else and claim that qwerty E is actually in a great place already. Middle finger is the strongest and longest finger, so reaching up takes minimal effort. Furthermore, ER roll is excellent.

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I partially agree with you - pinky use should in general be avoided, but home-row pinky usage is acceptable. The real problem comes when you have to stretch to reach awkward keys with pinkies, but in Colemak the top and bottom row pinky keys are Q Z ; /  -- none of which are very frequent.

Here are my key ratings:
keyboard_scores.png
However since creating that, my love of the lower-row index finger keys (qwerty C/M or the D/H keys in my mod) has only grown. I could probably argue for these keys to be more favourable than the home row pinkies even!

The problem with the JA switch is you end up with a lot of common letters on the left index finger: A, N, H, M, U - not to mention a lot of awkward bigrams. And you still end up with J still being in a too good a position. For minimal swaps involving J, I would sooner swap J with N.

Index finger key stretching diagonally up is not pleasant, the T is very badly positioned in Qwerty, much worse than E in my view also. Consequently nowadays I think the best single change in Qwerty is the F-T switch.

Last edited by stevep99 (18-Mar-2016 14:20:39)

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How bad or good the QWERTY E position depends on your style. Using the Curl(Colemak-DH) mod, I agree that this position is good. Whether it is good enough for the extremely common E is more uncertain to me, so I prefer its Colemak mapping. But yeah, if the question is to make one swap from QWERTY then it's not entirely certain that an E swap is best.

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People need to sooner realize and accept the fact that the home pinky is not that great. Empirical and anecdotal evidence suggests that it is: slow, weak, inflexible; awkward for rolls, double letters, and long one-hand sequences; easily tired and stressed.


stevep99 said:

The problem with the JA switch is you end up with a lot of common letters on the left index finger: A, N, H, M, U - not to mention a lot of awkward bigrams. And you still end up with J still being in a too good a position. For minimal swaps involving J, I would sooner swap J with N.

And yet the bigrams are possibly faster than pressing the home pinky once.

You can see the timing of each finger by trying this typing speed test yourself: http://patorjk.com/typing-speed-test/ . Type as fast as you can using your favorite layout for at least 2 minutes. After each trial, it shows you which fingers are fastest and slowest. Do it several times and note the averages for each finger.

My own scores reveal that the home pinky is slower than the top and bottom rows for ring and index fingers by a wide margin. It's even slower than index finger reaching to the inside column. The bottom row ring and index are surprisingly fast and should not be underestimated.

Greatly disagree with your chart. My chart looks like this since I've done the speed test above:

keyboard_effort_grid.png

The values take into account the speed and roll potential of the fingers. Lower scores are better. As you can see, the 10 best keys on each hand do not involve the pinky at all.

Last edited by Shena'Fu (20-Mar-2016 05:40:05)
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Your empirical, anecdotal evidence may not be a lot stronger than mine that says that the home position pinky is just fine. I guess there are quite large individual differences.

I didn't find that test so easy to do, possibly because of my browser. But after sorting out some artefacts, I found my left-hand pinky to be the fastest finger in two tests and not the third. Not sure what to make of that, beyond not trusting neither the test nor your observations a lot. ;-)

Left Pinky:        204 Milliseconds
Left Ring:         184 Milliseconds
Left Middle:      205 Milliseconds
Left Index:       198 Milliseconds
Right Index:     181 Milliseconds
Right Middle:    137 Milliseconds
Right Ring:       169 Milliseconds
Right Pinky:      236 Milliseconds
Thumb(s):        100 Milliseconds
Last edited by DreymaR (20-Mar-2016 21:14:21)

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You need to do a few throw-away trials before each session to warm up and loosen up the fingers. As you do more trials on the same session, the stats become more evident. For me, the pinky never gets below three digits of milliseconds, while the other fingers can consistently get down to 65-90 ms.

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I did. In the first trials, one pinky would win which I found suspicious but at least an indication that your pinkies may be worse off than mine? Or my other fingers worse off than yours?

Last edited by DreymaR (25-Mar-2016 08:09:06)

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Shena'Fu said:

Greatly disagree with your chart. My chart looks like this since I've done the speed test above:

http://www.shenafu.com/code/keyboard/ke … t_grid.png

The values take into account the speed and roll potential of the fingers. Lower scores are better. As you can see, the 10 best keys on each hand do not involve the pinky at all.

It's always interesting to see other people's assessment of the relative strength for fingers/keys. But even so, as you would probably guess, I disagree with a lot of what you have there. In particular:

- you have top-row ring finger better than bottom row index finger. I disagree particularly strongly with this.
- there is only a small penalty for the middle column (Qwerty G and H), you are rating these the same as bottom row index finger.
- you have diagonally-up index fingers (Qwerty T and Y) as better than home-row pinky.

Your diagram seem to be assuming a matrix-like layout, so I don't know if you are allowing for standard staggered design. If you are using a matrix keyboard that might account for your different experience to some extent, but I can't imagine it would make *that* much difference.

I do think you may have a point the home-row pinkies have historically been given slightly too favourable a rating, but what you have there doesn't match my experience at all.

That's part of the fun of keyboard layouts though - each to their own!

Last edited by stevep99 (26-Mar-2016 18:38:36)

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Well, to be fair Shena'Fu is measuring rather than just assessing/assuming. The problem with that, of course, is that it depends on your current training and habits. But it's an interesting methodology.

Last edited by DreymaR (27-Mar-2016 16:42:08)

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I had something of a brainwave a couple of weeks ago which - if not particularly good keyswap - I feel is worth sharing.


My thought process went something like this:

   - T and R cause too many consecutive finger keystrokes. Neither should be on an index finger.
   - Typing R with L.Middle doesn't help because then you trade TR GR BR FR (and variants) for ER RE ERE and CR.
   - unless you type E with L.Ring. Which is an awkward reach from the home position on S.
   - None of which fixes that T is too far away for the second most frequent letter.
   - Unfortunately the Left Hand simply can't be moved because A is so blasted important.
   - It isn't as if Q and Z matter, they are almost never used.
   - *Sigh*
   - Y'know, ; is also almost never used.
   - Funny. Because it's, like, almost the exact opposite setup of the Left hand position. Moving the left or right hands inward would fix a lot of same finger problems. The left can't move because of the importance of A dispite the useless surronding keys, and you want to move the right because of the uselessness of ; but can't because it has useful surrounding keys.
   - ...
   - So, I'll just swap A and ; then?


Result of A ; swap.

a%3B.jpg?dl=1

Pros:
- Distance to T Y and B are reduced.
- L.Hand bottom row stagger is fixed.
- L.Index samefinger digraphs broken up.
- L.Alt is easier to hit with L.Pinkie
- Only swaps two keys! Heck, with the infrequency of ; I'd go so far as to call it 1.5 keys. In theory, on regular qwerty this would be an easy to read cypher.

Cons:
- Doesn't fix ED
- Doesn't fix UN
- Increases distance to L.Shift
- E is now on L.Ring.
- Ctrl+A is now a R.Hand shortcut.
- L.Alt is harder to hit with L.Thumb.
- Swaps keys. You'd probably get fired from your workplace.
- Requires relearning entire Left Hand.


Of course, since this is a mini-mod, you could always tack others on top of it. Like the E/L swap for instance.

Last edited by cevgar (04-Apr-2017 20:10:06)
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cevgar said:

   - T and R cause too many consecutive finger keystrokes. Neither should be on an index finger.
   - Typing R with L.Middle doesn't help because then you trade TR GR BR FR (and variants) for ER RE ERE and CR.
   - unless you type E with L.Ring.

It all comes down to context. sometimes you switch the fingering and sometimes you don't. Those ER,RE,ERE only become a problem when you are currently in the process of a TR,GR,BR,FR. If you're not in the process of one of those, then you just use normal fingering

"sort" is easy with L32 on 'rt', but this has no conflicts as mentioned
So consider: "tree", in this case you easily shift to L2344
How about "over", how much nicer is that with L243 on "ver" ?
Or "there", you have a choice since you have some time to jump back during the 'h' press


cevgar said:

E with L.Ring Which is an awkward reach from the home position on S.

On the surface this looks like a problem, but its the same as the complaint about the normal C with L3 middle. This is only an issue if you are using poor technique (such as this). Sure, both of those are awkward if you leave your entire hand on home row, and bring it back after each keypress. But that's not how you should be typing. Your hand should move where it needs to go (I guess Dreymar and others call this 'float' but I'm not sure). For both cases, you simply move the fingers that are in the way:

alternate E with L4: ring finger bumps close to middle, you just lift the middle and index finger out of the way (and they will shift near 'TR' in the process), and its an easy press. Its not a one-finger-at-a-time thing. You do whats comfortable

standard C with L3: index finger is in the way, you just lift the index out of the way, and when you press C your ring drags down slightly and index will hover high over 'V'. Its not just one finger moving by itself. (although in most cases L2 for 'C' is better)


cevgar said:

   - None of which fixes that T is too far away for the second most frequent letter.

Yes. Very true.


cevgar said:

- Doesn't fix ED
- Doesn't fix UN

ED -> L32
UN -> R32

UN is pretty easy. But L32 for ED is a little tight.

The learning curve for alt fingering might be better than a whole new layout. But again, it has to be context sensitive. You won't always be using the same finger for the same key in all instances, and that's fine. Piano players do the same thing. So the learning will be focused on 1. learning the new finger, and 2. learning WHEN to choose it


cevgar said:

- Requires relearning entire Left Hand.

Def a bigger problem since you've shifted the entire left hand home row. Might as well learn a new layout. Of course, these alt fingering techniques still apply just as well to alt layouts too

Last edited by misterW (09-Mar-2017 17:07:34)
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cevgar said:

   - So, I'll just swap A and ; then?

Interesting idea. Also, because you are only swapping A with semicolon (same row), you can more easily switch keycaps. 

I find it a bit weird to have only one centre column though. If you don't mind about the Q, Z and semicolon (since they are rare), isn't what you have essentially the same as this:

DgTozhf.png

It's basically the same layout home-key wise, but you get to keep the fingers in the usual location. Requires pulling up more keys though.

Last edited by stevep99 (06-Mar-2017 14:27:00)

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@stevep99 Hey, you're right! That A and ; use the same keycaps didn't even occur to me. Hah, Bonus Feature: Get!

Oh, I like the row shift! Requires more work to setup the layout, but it maintains L.Shift distance so it is definitely worth it. Loses the distance reduction to Y but QU right next to each other would be stupid ...probably. Maybe? Anyway, the only real downside is it messes up ZXCV. Maybe instead of reverse-swapping the left hand, Wide-Mod the right?


a%3B%20Rshift.jpg?dl=1




@misterW On the topic of adaptive fingering for E, "Ten Fingers Not Needed". TL:DR - research shows that at least up to 80wpm, the difference between number of fingers used is less significant to speed than consistantly using the same finger-key pairings. AKA, alternate fingering is fine, adaptive fingering is not.

That being said, I still agree with you that alternate fingering is both valid and useful. Just not on the Qwerty E. L.Middle for Qwerty U, on the other hand, is great (been doing that for years myself).

In fact, check out the stats when you combine alternate fingering with an E/L swap.



LurE Layout (LE swapped, ur alternate fingering. To LurE people away from Qwerty.)

LurE.jpg?dl=1
LurE%20Stats.jpg?dl=1

Oddly enough, it seems RL, RD, and LD are less frequent letter combinations than one would think. Just don't write too many 'Hello World!' scripts.

Last edited by cevgar (04-Apr-2017 20:24:44)
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cevgar said:

@misterW On the topic of adaptive fingering for E, "Ten Fingers Not Needed". TL:DR - research shows that at least up to 80wpm, the difference between number of fingers used is less significant to speed than consistantly using the same finger-key pairings. AKA, alternate fingering is fine, adaptive fingering is not.

That being said, I still agree with you that alternate fingering is both valid and useful. Just not on the Qwerty E. L.Middle for Qwerty U, on the other hand, is great (been doing that for years myself).

What do you mean by 'adaptive' fingering? I didn't see it in the link.

Do you mean based on the context of the word and surrounding letters? If so, are you saying you ALWAYS use R3 for 'U'? I think thats a big mistake to always use that finger for U. I only use R3 for U in UH,UB,UN combos, and R2 (standard) otherwise. How would you type "guide" then?

I could be convinced that adapting E based on context isn't as good, but U seems pretty straightforward to use index as default and middle on occasion


cevgar said:

In fact, check out the stats when you combine alternate fingering with an E/L swap.

LurE Layout (LE swapped, ur alternate fingering. To LurE people away from Qwerty.)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5361394/LurE.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/536 … 0Stats.jpg

Oddly enough, it seems RL, RD, and LD are less frequent letter combinations than one would think. Just don't write too many 'Hello World!' scripts.

The E/L swap does look nice, as does E/K, and may be worthwhile for me to consider both of those

Last edited by misterW (07-Mar-2017 02:31:22)
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misterW said:

If so, are you saying you ALWAYS use R3 for 'U'?

Yes. Frequency of UI digraphs is low enough so as not to be an issue. J has low enough frequency that the index finger rarely gets in the way. Even if it weren't, in my experience dealing with samefinger is - for the average typist - less of a bottleneck than adaptive fingering.

EDIT: Just to clarify, by adaptive fingering I mean changing what finger you use to hit keys based on context. Eg: which keys came before and after. Maybe contextual fingering?


misterW said:

The E/L swap does look nice, as does E/K, and may be worthwhile for me to consider both of those

While I have championed the E/K swap in the past, I no longer recommend it. E/L is much better.

Last edited by cevgar (07-Mar-2017 14:22:46)
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cevgar said:
misterW said:

If so, are you saying you ALWAYS use R3 for 'U'?

Yes. Frequency of UI digraphs is low enough so as not to be an issue. J has low enough frequency that the index finger rarely gets in the way. Even if it weren't, in my experience dealing with samefinger is - for the average typist - less of a bottleneck than adaptive fingering.

EDIT: Just to clarify, by adaptive fingering I mean changing what finger you use to hit keys based on context. Eg: which keys came before and after. Maybe contextual fingering?

Yes certainly for the avg typist, using the same finger for an alt fingering will definitely be a lower bottleneck. I don't think its optimal though.

You make a good point about U though. Using middle for U is really only a problem for UI and UK (luck, duck) and the UK is extremely rare and has a letter in between. So U was a bad example. I already used the RT example, could also be used for FT as in 'shift'. You'd def want to use middle for F there, but not in most other cases.

cevgar said:

While I have championed the E/K swap in the past, I no longer recommend it. E/L is much better.

I'm curious why you've changed your thoughts on that?

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