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Colemak For Windows with Capslock to Backspace

  • Started by vaskozl
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  • From: Oslo, Norway
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So yeah, this must be related to the problem described above. As far as I can see, you have Italiano(Italia) as your language setting, and have added two different keyboards to it. The icon shows language, so it won't change. If you wanted a "Co" icon, you'd have to select Corsican language, but that'd make your spell check Corsican. In sum, this solution is too hacky and therefore not robust.

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DreymaR said:

So yeah, this must be related to the problem described above. As far as I can see, you have Italiano(Italia) as your language setting, and have added two different keyboards to it. The icon shows language, so it won't change. If you wanted a "Co" icon, you'd have to select Corsican language, but that'd make your spell check Corsican. In sum, this solution is too hacky and therefore not robust.

Mhh the problem isn't the text on the icon but that, if there are multiple keyboard, I can't select the Colemak keyboard in no way. (so I can't use it)

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Well, that can't be right. But you wanted this "hacked" install because of the Caps remapping, is that it?

Why don't you come to the dark side instead? We have Extend for PKL! ;-)

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Is there a version for a UK keyboard - with the extra key between Z and Shift (and, ideally, Shift-2 giving " and not @)?
On the Colemak keyboard, this key repeats  -_ and we loose #~

Or, is there a way to edit the layout?

Last edited by Cyberspy (10-May-2017 14:27:40)
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You mean, is there a English(UK) MSKLC install? Not sure. But getting MSKLC and compiling with it is surprisingly easy. And the VK_102 key is on all layouts; it's just pointlessly defined in the standard Colemak setup because the ANSI users don't care about it.

If you get very stuck, I can help you.

You may want to use that extra key very productively, for the Angle or even Curl(DH) ergo mod! ;-)

Actually, I've attached a Colemak[eD] file but it isn't complete with all dead key definitions and such. It's got CurlAngleWide though.

Last edited by DreymaR (10-May-2017 17:12:32)
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i installed and i cant switch to qwerty.  how do i revert to qwerty?

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arst33 said:

i installed and i cant switch to qwerty.  how do i revert to qwerty?

If you're using Dreymar's PKL you can temporary disable it with ctrl+shift+` (key left of the number 1)

If you're using the standard PKL for colemak it's alt+alt gr.

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sotolf said:
arst33 said:

i installed and i cant switch to qwerty.  how do i revert to qwerty?

If you're using Dreymar's PKL you can temporary disable it with ctrl+shift+` (key left of the number 1)

If you're using the standard PKL for colemak it's alt+alt gr.

im using the .klc vaskozl provided.  i managed to recreate a qwerty klc and i installed it but no luck.

when i switch to dvorak the layout does change.  interestingly, the touchscreen kb im using is in qwerty and changes to dvorak.

also i am able to execute setup and choose to remove this klc but it does not work.  all in all im having fun learning about this stuff but i would like to stick with my familar qwerty kb; since im not that good at any other yet.

Last edited by arst33 (22-Nov-2017 10:23:55)
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Okay, let's see. You've given us too little info I fear?

arst33 said:

I tried reverting back but this mod has changed all of my eng qwerty kb layouts to colemak.  it isnt listed as a program so i cant remove it.  i tried removing it by using the setup option and it did not work.


• What's your Windows version?
• What's your locale? English (United States) or otherwise?
• Under that locale, what's your keyboard setting(s)? Do you have only one keyboard there or several?
• Did you use the Colemak(CO) or Colemak(US) install?
• What setup option did you use to try and remove the layout?
• You say it changed all your English QWERTY layouts to Colemak?!? It really shouldn't do that and I find it very hard to believe!
• So, are you saying that you now have several Colemak layouts to choose from under your English locale?
• Recreating a QWERTY klc is not the right answer, trust me on that! :-o What did you name it, and do you see it anywhere now?

Some things you may need to understand:
• Nowadays, you select a locale (UK/US/what-have-you) and then an "input method" (usually a layout) under that.
• The Win10 locale settings are found under Settings (I hit the Win button and then type "settings") → Time & Language → Region & Language
• Then, under the right locale you can add or manage Options → Keyboards (and other things like speech recognition).
• An active layout may not be uninstalled because it's in use by the OS.
• You'll have to select/add another keyboard (make it default?) and also remove the offending keyboard in the settings.
• Then, you can remove the installed layout like a normal program so you won't have to see it again.
• It should indeed be listed as a program if it was installed by the KLC installer!
• I have a KLC layout on my PC. Under Settings → Apps & Features, it shows as <Layout name> <creator>.
    (In my case, that's "Colemak CurlAngleWide (WIP)", creator DreymaR, size 144 KB).

Let me add a take-home message (that may be unnecessary to you but still useful to others I hope):

I don't recommend using the layout installs in this topic. They may mess with your system.

As sotolf touched on, I use my PKL version instead. It has lots of nice functionality and doesn't install anything untoward. KLC is nice, but using a hacked one is a bit drastic.

Last edited by DreymaR (22-Nov-2017 11:06:39)

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• What's your Windows version?
     My version is 10
• What's your locale? English (United States) or otherwise?
     US
• Under that locale, what's your keyboard setting(s)? Do you have only one keyboard there or several?
     i started using dvorak and colemak recently.  i have several.
• Did you use the Colemak(CO) or Colemak(US) install?
     i used Colemak(en) first
• What setup option did you use to try and remove the layout?
     i used Colemak(en)
• You say it changed all your English QWERTY layouts to Colemak?!? It really shouldn't do that and I find it very hard to believe!
     i should explain.  all of my English qwerty kbs are stuck in Colemak while my Dvorak kbs still function normally.  i tried to use Canadian or other EN layouts but no luck.
• So, are you saying that you now have several Colemak layouts to choose from under your English locale?
     Not exactly.  They are listed as English/qwerty and yet they function as Colemak.
• Recreating a QWERTY klc is not the right answer, trust me on that! :-o What did you name it, and do you see it anywhere now?
    I named it Qwerty and its sitting in my language bar.

Last edited by arst33 (22-Nov-2017 11:11:23)
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Oh dear. Sounds as if something got badly hurt then. Here's what I'd do:

• In the future, only use DreymaR Approved Products! ^_^ No, seriously...
• Select Dvorak and make it your default layout, ...
• ...or if you can't remember Dvorak typing try switching to another locale like English(United Kingdom) and add a keyboard to it making that the default
• (Or can't you even do that? What about Norwegian?)
• Remove any and all other keyboards under the US locale settings!
• Now you may have to restart your computer. Yes, this can still happen. ;-)
• Now go to "Add & Remove Programs" and see if you can find anything named something with Colemak there.
• If so, uninstall it. That should be possible once it isn't selected anywhere.
• Finally, go back to the locale settings and add back the layout you want, making that the default again.

It seems that your rogue installer has done something very naughty to your QWERTY, and it ought to be spanked for it. If the above doesn't help, try repairing your Windows. Try reinstalling the default layouts; I don't know how to, but maybe MS Support can help you. Or, failing all that, move to Linux and never look back... ;-)

Last edited by DreymaR (22-Nov-2017 11:50:07)

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i will try that, thank you  for your help

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I had to re-install Windows to completely fix the problem.  I would definitely not recommend using this KLC; it caused me lots of trouble.  However, I did learn a bit about MKLC so I guess it's worth it.

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Sorry to hear that!

Yeah, I'm glad Shai didn't listen to my first reaction and put that thing on his main page. Now I guess that would've brought a lot of trouble!

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Hey arst33, thanks for trying Colemak, I'm sorry this has happened to you :(
As a mostly GNU/systemd/linux with a hardware Colemak keyboard I haven't been paying close attention to the language layout changes in new versions of Windows.

I tried to reproduce your issues by backing up my windows machine, installing windows updates and installing both layouts, but I cant get US Qwerty become Colemak and I could switch just fine. The installer is able to remove the layouts from the settings menu (which has not changed and is still crazy low resolution) for me as well. You mention you have a touch screen, what device are you on? I'm wondering if the Surface's keyboards interface the same way as normal HID ones.

I've removed the Corsican locale as it has been established as problematic for spell check. If you are sure it was the fault of the KLC produced by Microsoft's tool, rather than something else, I'll remove it from the OP completely in favor of something like PKL. I still much prefer the native Colemak layout on Windows over 3rd party tools, as I find it more reliable for certain applications like games.

Really though, shame on Microsoft for ignoring and publicly ridiculing the community for so long.

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Hey Vaskozl, thanks for chiming in! Yeah, I suspect something really weird happened with that install. But agree fully on removing the Corsican locale variant. Albeit a cool idea in itself, it created more trouble than it solved. ;-)

vaskozl said:

Really though, shame on Microsoft for ignoring and publicly ridiculing the community for so long.

Oh dear, that one again. You really have to keep in mind:
• This is Michael Kaplan, one MS employee. He spoke only for himself, not for MS as a company!
• Some Colemak "acolytes" had indeed been pestering him unnecessarily and aggressively:
    – Off topic posting like the one mentioned in his topic
    – An aggressive stance as to why Colemak wasn't included among MS layouts...
    – ...which was NOT of his doing, but company policy dictating that a country has to champion a new layout!
    – (Incidentally, this has been a huge problem for some oppressed minorities like Kurds and Uyghur.)
• You need to understand that MichKap had worked his ass off for MS with too little resources for a long time.
• You also need to understand that as a handicapped person he faced hardship on other fronts.
• Michael got fired from MS and his blog got taken down, over some patent stuff I think.
• Hence, don't blame Microsoft for what he wrote! Please!
• Michael died on October 21st 2015. Please don't regurgitate what he said on some of his bad days any more.

Let that history rest now. It really really deserves to. Of the dead, no evil. Please. Did I mention, please?

Last edited by DreymaR (28-Nov-2017 11:19:36)

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Michael's post made it seem like he had the authority to decide what gets included with windows. I knew nothing of the rest.

DreymaR said:

but company policy dictating that a country has to champion a new layout!

They have had Dvorak for many years, which is not any specific country's layout. You could argue that Dvorak is an ANSI (American) standard based on some pdf which costs $60 to view, but that wasn't the "official" reason for ignoring Colemak.

From the (now mostly lost) replies by Microsoft, the concern stated was that one was not able to buy a keyboard with the keycaps arranged in the Colemak layout. This has been resolved now as you can buy many keyboards (after the mechanical boom) that have Colemak arranged legends (if not hardware Colemak). Colemak is a free configuration and it would cost them literally nothing to include it as an option, saving them from being pestered.

There is no place to propose/vote for the inclusion of Colemak, and still no way to change the native layout without being an Administrator running a binary installer, leading people to reach out to anyone who would reply (even if negatively).

Seems like any effort to make Microsoft acknowledge non Qwerty layouts has died off. I find that a bad thing, as Windows is still the ubiquitous operating system and people looking to minimize computer based strain and injury are significantly disadvantage in many environments where using Windows is required (be it Educational or Professional).

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Dvorak snuck in before the ban, as it were. Indeed, I believe it was championed by the ANSI.

Again, you keep saying "answers by Microsoft" based on Michael Kaplan's personal blog! It was he that wrote that answer about the keyboard caps, as I recall it. Because his personal blog was taken down the answers have gone missing – but the Internet Archive has some of it I believe, should you wish to dig.

Indeed, Microsoft – or the ANSI for that matter – haven't included Colemak which makes us sad. I believe part of their dilemma is that opening for Colemak would open the flood gates of every geek with a proposal! And personally I think it's a damn good thing that vocal supporters of, say, a fictive layout that I shall arbitrarily call Woinkman, aren't able to clutter the menus with their soup du jour.

But at any rate, please please please stop making Kaplan's answers into Microsoft canon as they never ever were! Too many layout geeks have taken his personal ramblings as MS canon but he never said it was and the geeks never bothered to read his disclaimers to learn the truth. Don't be those people. Yes, he was probably too vocal about things but he's gone now so let it rest.

To make this fun as hell, if MS were aiming to please me they'd have to include not only vanilla Colemak but also my preferred mod Colemak-CAW! And although we've finally managed to agree on the Curl-Angle mod for ISO non-matrix keyboards, there are still variants of the Wide mod so this is by no means the only possible mod they'd have to include. And for ANSI and/or matrix boards there's more to choose from... ;-)

Last edited by DreymaR (29-Nov-2017 12:54:15)

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DreymaR said:

I think it's a damn good thing that vocal supporters of, say, a fictive layout that I shall arbitrarily call Woinkman, aren't able to clutter the menus with their soup du jour.

Arbitrary... sure ;)

DreymaR said:

To make this fun as hell, if MS were aiming to please me they'd have to include not only vanilla Colemak but also my preferred mod Colemak-CAW! And although we've finally managed to agree on the Curl-Angle mod for ISO non-matrix keyboards, there are still variants of the Wide mod so this is by no means the only possible mod they'd have to include. And for ANSI and/or matrix boards there's more to choose from... ;-)

Yeah that would be the same for me, now that I've gotten used to caw I don't want to change again, I'm a believer now.

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The Linux menus are increasingly cluttered by mostly fictive layouts like Woinkman by now. ;-)

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DreymaR said:

The Linux menus are increasingly cluttered by mostly fictive layouts like Woinkman by now. ;-)

That's why I use the really nice i3wm, no menues that can be bothersome :)

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DreymaR said:

Again, you keep saying "answers by Microsoft" based on Michael Kaplan's personal blog!

No I was referecing old Colemak threads where the topic was discussed, I have no idea who said it, I can't actually find any official statements from Microsoft. What's the reason for ignoring us now?

DreymaR said:

Dvorak snuck in before the ban

Where do we know this from? Is it an "official" Microsoft statement?

DreymaR said:

Indeed, Microsoft – or the ANSI for that matter – haven't included Colemak which makes us sad. I believe part of their dilemma is that opening for Colemak would open the flood gates of every geek with a proposal! And personally I think it's a damn good thing that vocal supporters of, say, a fictive layout that I shall arbitrarily call Woinkman, aren't able to clutter the menus with their soup du jour.

Yes it does makes us sad, as I have a hard time using their platform, which is a problem not present on the other 2 most popular OSes. Why shouldn't people be able to suggest their own layout (especially if there is a lot of them) and have it added? Is anyone seriously having trouble selecting their default Qwerty layout because of "Woinkman" layouts that are not even visible until you type their name? Apple maintains a very high standard regarding usability and they have no issues providing their customers with layouts like Colemak.

DreymaR said:

To make this fun as hell, if MS were aiming to please me they'd have to include not only vanilla Colemak but also my preferred mod Colemak-CAW! And although we've finally managed to agree on the Curl-Angle mod for ISO non-matrix keyboards, there are still variants of the Wide mod so this is by no means the only possible mod they'd have to include. And for ANSI and/or matrix boards there's more to choose from... ;-)

I don't use vanilla Colemak either. But I can use vanilla colemak and that is much  better than having to use Qwerty for me. Why shouldn't people be able to develop layouts (including non-english ones) and propose them as contributions (like in GNU/Linux & BSD systems). I would be even more happy if they include Curl-Angle etc. Qwerty users that don't care about layouts will never know. Most people are hardly troubled by the presence of Dvorak, but it is a massive factor when considering the cost and benefits of switching.

They don't even have to provide it by default in their extremely neat and usable low resolution (on my screen) menus. Simply allowing to change the layout without Administrator permissions or running executable would go a very long way. They have things like app stores now, similar to android where you can install new keyboards, they could put Colemak on there so you can only get it if you search for it!

Last edited by vaskozl (04-Dec-2017 02:11:54)

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They should've provided a download of alternative layouts, including Dvorak and Colemak variants! In the Dvorak world there are several flavors as well. That would've made a lot of people happier, I think. And at any rate, the time for favoring Dvorak over the rest should be over now.

I can't remember where I have the info about Dvorak and MS/ANSI from. It's probably out there on one of the Dvorak history pages?

Last edited by DreymaR (05-Dec-2017 10:53:21)

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