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Incremental Colemak for programmers

  • Started by karl
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  • From: Oslo, Norway
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Okay, my PKL Tarmak files have been updated with Tarmak(ETR) and Tarmak(ETOR) layouts. The ETOR is the same as ETRO, as you could get there both from ETO and ETR and for now ETO is the default pathway. That may change though...

Oh, and check out the fancy heat map animations I put into the patorjk analysis post above! ;)

Last edited by DreymaR (22-May-2014 10:22:01)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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I think the Tarmak names are too similar (I barely remember which ones they are, and I'm not a new user going through decision paralysis!). Maybe Tarmak(J) and Tarmak(J;) would be easier for distinguishing them.  Heck, maybe go all in and start referring to them by karl's nicknames when comparing them: Tarmak(ETS) (aka J-Hopper), Tarmak(ETOS) (aka J;-Hopper).  The catchy ones (much like "Tarmak" itself) are probably better for public consumption.

The gifs are cool!

Last edited by lalop (09-Apr-2014 17:02:35)
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Hey DreymaR, I like what you're doing here. The heat maps look cool! And lalop, I agree about the names needing to be less similar.

I'll be happy with whatever name you go with, but I do have a couple thoughts for consideration. The name "Tarmak for Programmers" immediately communicates the purpose and utility of the method without having to provide any additional explanation. I find the "J-Hopper" name catchy and fun, but it does highlight a weakness of the method; the J moves all over the place during the learning process. (Of course, this is a weakness of any method that breaks loops.) Anyhow, pick whatever whatever you like (including another name). It's yours now.

I have a name suggestion for the existing version of Tarmak (ETOI): "Tarmak Jump Start" (or similar). This name highlights the fact that it has been optimized to provide the largest benefit as early as possible (at the expense of a less-beneficial last loop, but no need to mention that  ;o)  ).

IMO, the default choice should just be called "Tarmak" and should not have an extra name in the official presentation. This will reduce confusion for the user. The name choice doesn't matter so much for the default because it will only be used in technical discussions.

Do you have any idea how many people have used the Tarmak learning process? I notice that one of the earliest Google hits for Colemak talks about and links to Tarmak.

Cheers!

Last edited by karl (10-Apr-2014 01:20:55)
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Yes, these names are very technical and not at all user friendly. But right now I'm in somewhat of a state of flux so I consider this a beta testing phase and the names likewise. I might ditch the ETOIR scheme for ETROI, making the former more of a hidden option for the specially interested (with a further choice between ETORI and ETOIR progressions) if ETROI keeps looking as good as it does now. I'd prefer having one main scheme and the others more in the background as "poweruser" choices, as that's more tidy. I'm actually not convinced that the ETROI scheme is necessarily a programmer's scheme although it's certainly good for programmers, cf my observation that the colon/semicolon key is actually used more than half as much as the J key in literature.

So yes, there will be a default choice and its name shall be Tarmak. In the technical discussion now, I find I need to distinguish between many subflavors so I like my five-letter denotations although I know they would be daunting to the newcomer. I've no problems with us calling the ETROI scheme "J-Hopper" for now though, as it's a fun name!

It's the same with my Wide mods: I've tested at least 3–4 variants of them for up to a year each and they bear arcane names based on what goes on the old left bracket key, but I settled down on one (AngleWide-Slash) so the novice user will get that unless he or she really wants something else. I like choice but too much choice early on isn't all that great (yes, I'm talking to you Linux!). ;)

I really don't know how many people have used Tarmak layouts, but they keep popping up here and there now. I know less than five people who have actually reported a transition using Tarmak so far (ezuk, bph, lalop, who else?), but it's been incorporated in several places so there's enthusiasm about it at least. At some point part of my XKB patches may make it into Linux and that's when it'll take off I guess. But by then I'd really like to have a somewhat finalized product you know! So I'm actually very happy that we're having this debate now as things can still be changed and a good brainstorm is a wonderful thing if it leads to a better product!

Karl, I'd like to co-credit you when I implement the ETROI scheme, whether as default or variant. If you want to, please tell me your name; otherwise I can just mention "user karl on the Colemak forums".

Last edited by DreymaR (22-May-2014 10:23:40)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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i can confirm that tarmak did the business for me..

i now use dreymars colemak with the wide angle mods for a UK keyboard layout

i can also report having to get quite friendly with xkb as a linux user and i have had some nightmares trying to run the patches - ideally it would be great if you didn't have to touch any of that as a new colemak user, as it is pretty tricky stuff. I don't know whether that implies having some sort of more robust script that handles the patching or something along those lines. the simpler the better i would say, ideally just a double click like the pkl stuff on windows

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Something is fishy with the patching these days. Let's discuss that in a new thread, why don't we?

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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I wasn't a Tarmak user, but ghaz and Coldmak were.

The "one Tarmak" plan seems good.  I'm generally pro- transitioning to J-Hopper, assuming it's feasible (it seems you've already done Windows, but your patches and ghaz's mac layouts would have to be updated)

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Isn't it kinda funny that the two people doing most for Tarmak (me and lalop) never actually used it? :þ

Well, here's hoping that karl will have a nice Tarmak transition ahead of him at least.

Alright, I've made up my mind: I'm going with karl's ETROI progression as the default Tarmak. It's just so much neater.
• Only misplacing the J around is consistent and tidy
• Clear YO;P-RSD-GTF-ENKJ and LUI loops provide minimal confusion
• Moving the J instead of both J and semicolon is beneficial for programmer and literate alike
• The slight model efficiency advantage of moving the LUI loop earlier is likely not worth it in the confusion of learning
• These steps provide an even increase in benefit (according to the patorjk analysis)
• Changing the default doesn't really hurt anyone as people don't use a Tarmak layout for a long time
• Early and clear RS resolution is probably good for alleviating the RS blues common to Colemak newbies
• This is a kind of magic. There can be only one.

Any other selling points I forgot?

I'll update the main Tarmak post when I get around to it. It needs tidying up anyway!

And I've tweaked the 'colemak' xkb symbols file, so I just have to edit the rules and the new xkb patch will be almost ready. :) If anyone wants the old variants back they'll have to edit the rules files a bit but I can show them how to do that. It's a matter of search-and-replace in two files. Or they could just edit the 'colemak' file and ignore the wrong layout descriptions (the OS would report Tarmak3(ETO) as Tarmak3(ETR) but still be the former in effect).

Last edited by DreymaR (22-May-2014 10:23:02)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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Well, I'm glad that you found the optimization useful and I'm glad that you've whittled it down to one. Picking a keyboard layout (Dvorak vs Colemak vs whatever) is confusing enough without introducing even more choices.

Another selling point of ETSOI:
• Aggressive learners can skip to Step 2 and then to Step 4 and only experience one letter out of place.

This comes from one of the characteristics of Tarmak in general. People can go through the steps as quickly or as slowly as they like. If they go quickly, they can reduce the negative influence of the transitional letter locations.

DreymaR and lalop, I appreciate all the work you're doing here. I wish I had the bandwidth to contribute more, but my life is busy right now.

My contact info:
Karl Nordstrom
Website: http://karlnordstrom.ca
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/karlnordstrom

[edit: only mild wording tweaks]

Last edited by karl (10-Apr-2014 17:45:17)
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my two-pence from learning colemak via tarmak from the starting point of a non-touch-typing qwerty user (basically your total worse case scenario)...

tarmak is a really catchy name - stick with it

tarmak -> bit like transitional-colemak -> bit like a road toward colemak, it works well

however many steps you end up with just no. them incrementally and don't have any choice

e.g.

qwerty, tarmak-1, tarmak-2, tarmak-3, tarmak-4, colemak

and just leave it at that

no one wants to have to wonder whether they should go tarmak-eto or perhaps tarmak-etsoi etc. etc. before they've actually learnt the layout

the observation that learning colemak is hard enough already so tarmak needs to be especially simple is a sound one..

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Same-finger analysis for the two (punctuation, same-letter not analyzed):

Tarmak 1, in both cases, goes from QWERTY's 6.94% same-finger to 4.36%, a very respectable gain.


Tarmak (ETOIS):

Tarmak (ETOIS) 1:
digraphs  Frequency   Period
     q,z      0.00%  3088227
     a,q      0.00%    41722
     a,z      0.04%     2719
     w,x      0.00%   437621
     s,w      0.06%     1706
     s,x      0.00%  1221420
     d,j      0.00%    20514
     c,j      0.00%   439911
     c,d      0.00%    21052
     r,v      0.07%     1425
     r,t      0.79%      127
     f,r      0.25%      407
     f,v      0.00%  1195982
     f,t      0.09%     1145
     f,g      0.00%    58273
     t,v      0.00%    72322
     g,r      0.30%      337
     g,v      0.00%   679006
     g,t      0.02%     5756
     b,r      0.14%      723
     b,f      0.00%   238156
     b,v      0.00%    25430
     b,t      0.02%     5089
     b,g      0.00%   133329
     h,y      0.05%     1976
     h,k      0.00%    29247
     h,u      0.07%     1338
     h,n      0.04%     2729
     h,m      0.01%     7532
     k,y      0.01%    15925
     k,u      0.01%    13107
     k,n      0.10%      970
     k,m      0.00%    51826
     u,y      0.01%    16964
     n,y      0.11%      900
     n,u      0.47%      211
     m,y      0.09%     1165
     m,u      0.25%      395
     m,n      0.04%     2737
     e,i      0.57%      176
     l,o      0.75%      133
                            
   Total      4.36%       23


Tarmak (ETOIS) 2:
digraphs  Frequency   Period
     q,z      0.00%  3088227
     a,q      0.00%    41722
     a,z      0.04%     2719
     w,x      0.00%   437621
     s,w      0.06%     1706
     s,x      0.00%  1221420
     d,f      0.00%    30544
     c,f      0.00%    50388
     c,d      0.00%    21052
     r,t      0.79%      127
     r,v      0.07%     1425
     t,v      0.00%    72322
     g,r      0.30%      337
     g,t      0.02%     5756
     g,v      0.00%   679006
     g,j      0.00%  1325074
     j,r      0.00%   125628
     j,t      0.00%   463188
     j,v      0.00%  1153663
     b,r      0.14%      723
     b,t      0.02%     5089
     b,v      0.00%    25430
     b,g      0.00%   133329
     b,j      0.02%     4292
     h,y      0.05%     1976
     h,k      0.00%    29247
     h,u      0.07%     1338
     h,n      0.04%     2729
     h,m      0.01%     7532
     k,y      0.01%    15925
     k,u      0.01%    13107
     k,n      0.10%      970
     k,m      0.00%    51826
     u,y      0.01%    16964
     n,y      0.11%      900
     n,u      0.47%      211
     m,y      0.09%     1165
     m,u      0.25%      395
     m,n      0.04%     2737
     e,i      0.57%      176
     l,o      0.75%      133
                            
   Total      4.05%       25


Tarmak (ETOIS) 3:
digraphs  Frequency   Period
     q,z      0.00%  3088227
     a,q      0.00%    41722
     a,z      0.04%     2719
     w,x      0.00%   437621
     s,w      0.06%     1706
     s,x      0.00%  1221420
     d,f      0.00%    30544
     c,f      0.00%    50388
     c,d      0.00%    21052
     r,t      0.79%      127
     r,v      0.07%     1425
     t,v      0.00%    72322
     g,r      0.30%      337
     g,t      0.02%     5756
     g,v      0.00%   679006
     b,r      0.14%      723
     b,t      0.02%     5089
     b,v      0.00%    25430
     b,g      0.00%   133329
     j,k      0.00%   541068
     j,u      0.06%     1689
     j,n      0.01%     8902
     j,m      0.00%   428334
     h,j      0.00%   584478
     h,k      0.00%    29247
     h,u      0.07%     1338
     h,n      0.04%     2729
     h,m      0.01%     7532
     k,u      0.01%    13107
     k,n      0.10%      970
     k,m      0.00%    51826
     n,u      0.47%      211
     m,u      0.25%      395
     m,n      0.04%     2737
     e,i      0.57%      176
     l,y      0.44%      227
     o,p      0.59%      171
                            
   Total      4.11%       24


Tarmak (ETOIS) 4:
digraphs  Frequency   Period
     q,z      0.00%  3088227
     a,q      0.00%    41722
     a,z      0.04%     2719
     w,x      0.00%   437621
     s,w      0.06%     1706
     s,x      0.00%  1221420
     d,f      0.00%    30544
     c,f      0.00%    50388
     c,d      0.00%    21052
     r,t      0.79%      127
     r,v      0.07%     1425
     t,v      0.00%    72322
     g,r      0.30%      337
     g,t      0.02%     5756
     g,v      0.00%   679006
     b,r      0.14%      723
     b,t      0.02%     5089
     b,v      0.00%    25430
     b,g      0.00%   133329
     j,k      0.00%   541068
     j,l      0.00%   443193
     j,n      0.01%     8902
     j,m      0.00%   428334
     h,j      0.00%   584478
     h,k      0.00%    29247
     h,l      0.01%     7037
     h,n      0.04%     2729
     h,m      0.01%     7532
     k,l      0.03%     3302
     k,n      0.10%      970
     k,m      0.00%    51826
     l,n      0.07%     1436
     l,m      0.03%     3620
     m,n      0.04%     2737
     e,u      0.18%      560
     i,y      0.03%     3443
     o,p      0.59%      171
                            
   Total      2.59%       39

The main gains from Stage 4 to Stage 5 (Colemak) appear to be "rt"/"tr" (currently 0.79%), "op"/"po" (currently 0.59%), and "rg"/"gr" (currently 0.30%).


Tarmak (J-Hopper/ETSOI):

Tarmak (J-Hopper/ETSOI) 1:
digraphs  Frequency   Period
     q,z      0.00%  3088227
     a,q      0.00%    41722
     a,z      0.04%     2719
     w,x      0.00%   437621
     s,w      0.06%     1706
     s,x      0.00%  1221420
     d,j      0.00%    20514
     c,j      0.00%   439911
     c,d      0.00%    21052
     r,v      0.07%     1425
     r,t      0.79%      127
     f,r      0.25%      407
     f,v      0.00%  1195982
     f,t      0.09%     1145
     f,g      0.00%    58273
     t,v      0.00%    72322
     g,r      0.30%      337
     g,v      0.00%   679006
     g,t      0.02%     5756
     b,r      0.14%      723
     b,f      0.00%   238156
     b,v      0.00%    25430
     b,t      0.02%     5089
     b,g      0.00%   133329
     h,y      0.05%     1976
     h,k      0.00%    29247
     h,u      0.07%     1338
     h,n      0.04%     2729
     h,m      0.01%     7532
     k,y      0.01%    15925
     k,u      0.01%    13107
     k,n      0.10%      970
     k,m      0.00%    51826
     u,y      0.01%    16964
     n,y      0.11%      900
     n,u      0.47%      211
     m,y      0.09%     1165
     m,u      0.25%      395
     m,n      0.04%     2737
     e,i      0.57%      176
     l,o      0.75%      133
                            
   Total      4.36%       23


Tarmak (J-Hopper/ETSOI) 2:
digraphs  Frequency   Period
     q,z      0.00%  3088227
     a,q      0.00%    41722
     a,z      0.04%     2719
     w,x      0.00%   437621
     s,w      0.06%     1706
     s,x      0.00%  1221420
     d,f      0.00%    30544
     c,f      0.00%    50388
     c,d      0.00%    21052
     r,t      0.79%      127
     r,v      0.07%     1425
     t,v      0.00%    72322
     g,r      0.30%      337
     g,t      0.02%     5756
     g,v      0.00%   679006
     g,j      0.00%  1325074
     j,r      0.00%   125628
     j,t      0.00%   463188
     j,v      0.00%  1153663
     b,r      0.14%      723
     b,t      0.02%     5089
     b,v      0.00%    25430
     b,g      0.00%   133329
     b,j      0.02%     4292
     h,y      0.05%     1976
     h,k      0.00%    29247
     h,u      0.07%     1338
     h,n      0.04%     2729
     h,m      0.01%     7532
     k,y      0.01%    15925
     k,u      0.01%    13107
     k,n      0.10%      970
     k,m      0.00%    51826
     u,y      0.01%    16964
     n,y      0.11%      900
     n,u      0.47%      211
     m,y      0.09%     1165
     m,u      0.25%      395
     m,n      0.04%     2737
     e,i      0.57%      176
     l,o      0.75%      133
                            
   Total      4.05%       25


Tarmak (J-Hopper/ETSOI) 3:
digraphs  Frequency   Period
     q,z      0.00%  3088227
     a,q      0.00%    41722
     a,z      0.04%     2719
     w,x      0.00%   437621
     r,w      0.04%     2298
     r,x      0.00%    83181
     f,s      0.02%     4410
     c,f      0.00%    50388
     c,s      0.18%      563
     j,t      0.00%   463188
     j,v      0.00%  1153663
     t,v      0.00%    72322
     g,j      0.00%  1325074
     g,t      0.02%     5756
     g,v      0.00%   679006
     d,j      0.00%    20514
     d,t      0.00%    23857
     d,v      0.02%     5168
     d,g      0.03%     2927
     b,j      0.02%     4292
     b,t      0.02%     5089
     b,v      0.00%    25430
     b,g      0.00%   133329
     b,d      0.01%    19058
     h,y      0.05%     1976
     h,k      0.00%    29247
     h,u      0.07%     1338
     h,n      0.04%     2729
     h,m      0.01%     7532
     k,y      0.01%    15925
     k,u      0.01%    13107
     k,n      0.10%      970
     k,m      0.00%    51826
     u,y      0.01%    16964
     n,y      0.11%      900
     n,u      0.47%      211
     m,y      0.09%     1165
     m,u      0.25%      395
     m,n      0.04%     2737
     e,i      0.57%      176
     l,o      0.75%      133
                            
   Total      3.00%       33


Tarmak (J-Hopper/ETSOI) 4:
digraphs  Frequency   Period
     q,z      0.00%  3088227
     a,q      0.00%    41722
     a,z      0.04%     2719
     w,x      0.00%   437621
     r,w      0.04%     2298
     r,x      0.00%    83181
     f,s      0.02%     4410
     c,f      0.00%    50388
     c,s      0.18%      563
     p,t      0.11%      908
     p,v      0.00%   240337
     t,v      0.00%    72322
     g,p      0.00%   112932
     g,t      0.02%     5756
     g,v      0.00%   679006
     d,p      0.00%    34114
     d,t      0.00%    23857
     d,v      0.02%     5168
     d,g      0.03%     2927
     b,p      0.00%    53884
     b,t      0.02%     5089
     b,v      0.00%    25430
     b,g      0.00%   133329
     b,d      0.01%    19058
     j,k      0.00%   541068
     j,u      0.06%     1689
     j,n      0.01%     8902
     j,m      0.00%   428334
     h,j      0.00%   584478
     h,k      0.00%    29247
     h,u      0.07%     1338
     h,n      0.04%     2729
     h,m      0.01%     7532
     k,u      0.01%    13107
     k,n      0.10%      970
     k,m      0.00%    51826
     n,u      0.47%      211
     m,u      0.25%      395
     m,n      0.04%     2737
     e,i      0.57%      176
     l,y      0.44%      227
                            
   Total      2.59%       39

The stage 4 total is quite a coincidence.

It's amazing how much is gained from swapping LUI.  The main gains are "ei"/"ie" (currently 0.57%), "nu"/"un" (currently 0.47%), and "ly"/"yl" (currently 0.44%).

In both cases, the gain from Stage 4 to 5 is 1.52%, down to Colemak's 1.07% same-finger.

Last edited by lalop (15-Apr-2014 10:33:21)
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I would like to be able to point people to an accessible Tarmak page that is easy for newcomers to understand.

DreymaR, is there a simple page for Tarmak that is accessible for people new to keyboard layouts, something that is not a forum post? Or, at least, a forum post focused on outlining Tarmak in the most simple way possible.

This is the how I get to the best reference that I've found so far.

Google search for Colemak. Click the link "How I quickly mastered a superior keyboard layout":

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-i-quic … ductivity/

Look for the link to the forum post (Learning it one hand at a time) and search for the following summary post:

https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?pid=8786#p8786

I also see that your Big Bag of Tricks posts talk about Tarmak, but it would be hard for a newbie to pick out where to start, i.e. what is Tarmak and what is the easiest way to get started with it?

Maybe there is a page somewhere that I haven't managed to find.

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Me too. So far, it's the forum posts that rule and that "summary post" is currently the most complete. They're updated and I'll write up a more clear post now that the dust is settling from this topic. ;)

Ezuk's blog is really nice, but it isn't a good introduction to the current Tarmak anymore. He used the first "Tarmac", doing the LUI loop first as a warmup and then one loop for each hand. And in the comment field he got quite interested in Minimak, just saying haha.

The Big Bag is supposed to be ... a big bag. So my idea with that is that people who come searching for one thing will bump into the other things and hopefully find something else that interests them! That said, yes it could be a bit clearer. I'll see what I can do.

Last edited by DreymaR (16-Apr-2014 10:59:35)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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Right now, the closest thing to a summary post is http://www.reddit.com/r/Colemak/comment … ng_qwerty/

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Thanks for the link. [edit: A great little collection of experiences and advice there.]  :) 

DreymaR, I just re-read the summary post in the Learning One Hand at a Time thread. That's a really nice summary that you've written.

If a new Tarmak introduction gets written (and if you remember) would you please post it at the end of this thread? I have a website and would like to write a post about Tarmak (though I have not had much time to do that kind of thing) and it would be nice to be able to link to the freshest info. I don't monitor the Colemak forum, but I am monitoring this thread.

It's great stuff that you're doing here.

Cheers!

Last edited by karl (17-Apr-2014 17:03:50)
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I wonder how it's going these days? Karl, are you still learning Colemak using Tarmak? How's it going? Have you seen the new pages? :)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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Hey DreymaR, Yes, I did see the pages. I like all the work that you've been doing. If it can't get onto the main pages of colemak.com somewhere, I recommend that you create your own website. I think that it would be helpful and worthwhile.

Cheers!

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Here is a github repo for Karl Nordstrom's 2014: Tarmak(E-T-R-O-I) sequence. We noticed a few issues with the original posting of the mac keyboard layouts. E.g. caps locks weren't correct for all tarmak layouts. If you want to add Linux/Windows, please do a pull request.

https://github.com/shelbyd/tarmak

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That's great!

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