Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis (Page 3) - General

Input Nirvana
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09-Aug-2011 07:41:45#51 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

Kinesis Advantage lets you remap any key anywhere, so be sure to put them in that group.

I found the thread on GH about TE, and they have kept saying a ship date and kept delaying it. The latest delay being only last month. A few people have gotten refunds. But on the upside in another thread, someone discusses making a board with their layout.

BvoFRak:
I like that layout, sweet stuff!

Last edited by Input Nirvana (09-Aug-2011 07:43:06)

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erw
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09-Aug-2011 08:30:07#52 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

input nirvana said:

Kinesis Advantage lets you remap any key anywhere, so be sure to put them in that group.

I have:

But it's not that simple. The Kinesis is designed for having space on the right thumb. When you go to the embedded mode, 0 is supposed to hide space, not backspace. This means that I have no backspace in embedded mode. I ofc could put it somewhere new, but the point is that this keyboard is designed for "right thumbed" people.

EDIT: Fixed url.

Last edited by erw (26-Aug-2011 17:35:03)

http://hi-games.net/typing-test/watch?u=4610

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boli
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26-Aug-2011 08:47:12#53 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

It looks like the first truly ergonomic keyboards are ready to ship soon. I'll let you know once I get the one I ordered...

They still accept preorders, and the price will apparently increase $50/€30 after August 31st.

Last edited by boli (26-Aug-2011 08:47:31)

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erw
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31-Aug-2011 03:14:41#54 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

This is my experience after using my Kinesis Advantage for six weeks:

Non-staggered layout: It was very easy to get used to enough to use it full speed, but somehow I still don't feel completely at home on it. I still sometimes hit 'b' instead of 'v'. Maybe it's because I still use the staggered keyboard of my netbook regularly. The number key locations are brilliant -- for the first time, I can touch type numbers!

Cherry key switches: Nice! I'd sure like to try some reds, but the browns are nice as well.

New locations for some keys since I use the rightmost keys for Scandinavian letters: The apostrophe, tilde/caret, accent/pipe and some other keys have moved. It's not as much of a problem as I'd have thought. Acceptable.

Arrow keys: A pain to use them with one hand (just like the rest of the keyboard) but it's awesome not to have to move the hands when I use both. When I use other keyboards now, I get disappointed each time I reach for the arrow keys but realize they're not "there" :-)

Thumb keys: Really good. But the thumb modifier locations are still not second nature.

Pedal: I use it as the standard keypad shift. It's nice to have but not as good as I'd hoped. I use it if my foot is nearby, not if it's not.

While the keyboard is very comfortable, I'm not sure I'm going to buy another one soon. I miss the editing capabilities I have perfected for years on the arrow and nearby keys.

http://hi-games.net/typing-test/watch?u=4610

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boli
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31-Aug-2011 08:19:08#55 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

Hey erw

Glad to read you (mostly) like your Kinesis Ergo Advantage.

In time you will no longer confuse v and b, and the modifier keys will become second nature. As with switching to Colemak it would probably go faster if you could switch cold turkey.

As for the arrow keys: you could move them to a position where you need only one hand. Personally I settled for having them on the bottom left (I used to have them on the bottom right for a while, but having them on the left allowed me to use them while the right hand was on the mouse, which is very neat. Same reasoning for having a second Enter key on the left side).

Cheers, Oli

Last edited by boli (31-Aug-2011 08:21:01)

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Input Nirvana
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01-Sep-2011 07:39:42#56 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

Something you all might be interested in regarding the Kinesis. I've added 2 keys to the keyboard, one under each of the 'shift' keys. The new keys are 'Fn' and activate the embedded layer, not as a 'toggle' like the 'keypad' button, but just as long as pressed. This function is also available with the triple foot switch. So you can press the "Fn" with one pinky while using the opposite hand for the modified key press.

Kinesis is offering Cherry red switches for the Contoured line of keyboards. I got the keywells sent to me and put them on one of my Kinesis. VERY NICE! I know of 3 people that have them, one loves it, one likes it, and one isn't getting used to it. Personal preference. I like both the browns and the reds.

You can see where I added the extra switches on the Kinesis...it's about halfway down the article. I also am adding a couple keys around the thumb clusters. This could be the answer you are looking for.
There are some racy pictures in this article, especially on the very top of the first page. You may not want other eyes to see:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8110

Last edited by Input Nirvana (01-Sep-2011 07:47:37)

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boli
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01-Sep-2011 12:47:15#57 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

Thanks for letting us know, input nirvana.

I just contacted Kinesis sales about a keyboard with the red cherry switches. If I like it I might order additional keywells for my two keyboards as well. :) How difficult is the swap? (is any soldering needed?)

The Fn-key mod is very nice as well, as is the replacement of the crappy F# keys. I would love if such a thing would be built-into the newer Kinesis keyboards. ;) (these mods look more involved than what I'd like to do myself)

Cheers, Oli

Update: "Advantage LF" ordered (that's the one with red cherry switches). Had to order a random article in the web shop, and reply to the automatic mail saying I actually want an "Advantage LF" (part number KB500USB-BLK-LF, price $325). Looking forward to it. :)

Last edited by boli (02-Sep-2011 13:43:24)

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Input Nirvana
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03-Sep-2011 01:56:34#58 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

boli said:

Thanks for letting us know, input nirvana.
I just contacted Kinesis sales about a keyboard with the red cherry switches. If I like it I might order additional keywells for my two keyboards as well. :) How difficult is the swap? (is any soldering needed?)

The 2 big keywells are plug-'n-play, and if you want the 2 thumb clusters, those will need to be soldered. (12 switches).

boli said:

The Fn-key mod is very nice as well, as is the replacement of the crappy F# keys. I would love if such a thing would be built-into the newer Kinesis keyboards. ;) (these mods look more involved than what I'd like to do myself)

I'm sorry to say it's a bit involved :( Taking the Kinesis apart is no big deal, as is removing the existing F-keys. Cutting the case for the new F-keys and making the new plates to hold the switches is a bit of time-consuming handiwork. Putting in the new F-key boards is easy, but then the wiring needs to be done, there are several ways, but you need to be prepared, it's not a 10 minute deal.

boli said:

Update: "Advantage LF" ordered (that's the one with red cherry switches). Had to order a random article in the web shop, and reply to the automatic mail saying I actually want an "Advantage LF" (part number KB500USB-BLK-LF, price $325). Looking forward to it. :)

You should offer opinions on Geekhack about the LF board, it will be welcomed.

Last edited by Input Nirvana (03-Sep-2011 01:56:52)

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cynthia
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09-Sep-2011 17:50:37#59 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

I have a kinesis keyboard and it's been working fine up until our recent move. I just plugged it into the usp on my computer and there's a high pitched continuous beeping noise coming from it. It worked for a moment despite this. Then I tried to reset it (Progrm+ctrl+F10), and now it doesn't work at all. Has anyone had this happen? What should I do?

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boli
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10-Sep-2011 01:26:17#60 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

Hmm, no idea. :( I guess I'd check out Kinesis support.

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boli
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12-Sep-2011 13:55:52#61 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

Got my Advantage LF today. First impressions:
The keys feel more easy-going, because the MX reds do not have a perceptible activation point like the MX browns do (sort of a small bump one can feel).

I do like that the keys feel easier-going, but I'm not sure yet if the lack of tactile feedback of the activation is good or not. There's still the artificial audible click the keyboard makes.

Prior to the Kinesis keyboard I was using an Apple aluminum keyboard, which has a very short travel distance - that needed some getting used to, but I liked it a lot. Often I've been wondering what a Kinesis Advantage with such keys would feel like. The MX reds make it feel a little closer, however the travel distance is still way longer.

Maybe it's time to experiment with o-rings, if I understand correctly they do shorten the travel distance.

Last edited by boli (12-Sep-2011 14:05:15)

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erw
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14-Sep-2011 14:09:11#62 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

I tried O-rings (actually a rubber band wrapped many times around the key stem). I didn't like it that much, but it was only on few keys (giving an inconsistent experience) and only for a few hours, so I shouldn't really comment on it. Maybe I should try it again for all keys, but it takes a long time to wrap them :-P

http://hi-games.net/typing-test/watch?u=4610

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Input Nirvana
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17-Sep-2011 06:39:04#63 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

The O-rings will shorten the travel by about .5mm, from 4mm down to 3.5mm.

The red switches are an interesting feel, I like both the reds and the browns, can't decide on one or the other on the Kinesis.

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boli
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16-Dec-2011 21:19:20#64 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

Hey guys

I received the TrulyErgonomic keyboard I pre-ordered today! Who'd have thought it wasn't vapor ware after all. ;)

First impressions:

good build quality
comfortable/natural basic (grid) layout (I'm using a Kinesis usually, though, so beware)
good switches (cherry MX brown in my case, saw too late they offered red as well)
some changes will take some getting used to, like the moved Shift keys for example
no manual or software was included in the shipment, so I dunno how to remap keys just yet :( asked via email, we'll see

All in all I'm positively surprised so far, too bad I can't remap stuff yet.

There's a thread about it at GH as well, with more info.

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pinkyache
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17-Dec-2011 11:40:53#65 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

It exists! Well I never! You should post a picture of it accompanied by today's newspaper.

Last edited by pinkyache (17-Dec-2011 11:41:29)

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boli
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17-Dec-2011 12:56:20#66 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

Here's a comparison picture with the Kinesis. Sorry I don't have any newspaper at hand. ;)

(Apologies for the dirty Kinesis board, it's gathering dust because I'm using another one with red switches instead of brown)

Last edited by boli (17-Dec-2011 13:02:04)

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pinkyache
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17-Dec-2011 19:29:09#67 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

@boli, it's quite different from the Kinesis. Be interesting to hear how it compares. I wonder if it will feel hunched up compared with the other.

Shame it doesn't split into two (yes, yes Dreymar, I'm still longing for those data hands...)

Never thought I'd see one in the wild though! How much was it, if you don't mind me asking?

Last edited by pinkyache (17-Dec-2011 19:29:54)

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Input Nirvana
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18-Dec-2011 09:13:19#68 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

1) Datahands are AWESOME.
2) Datahands are AWESOME.

Sorry, but Datahands are so awesome you really need to be told twice. Once just doesn't have the impact :) If you buy used, I STRONGLY suggest you only purchase the Personal, or the Professional II. The Personal can be upgraded to a Professional II with a user installed chip for less than $200 USD and the only difference is the addition of macros. Used prices for these units on ebay vary from $400-$1,500 USD. The only other thing to know is the palmrests come in Small and Large. I'm currently not using mine, but I'm trying to get a few major Datahanders together and put a Datahand resource together on the web.

Last edited by Input Nirvana (19-Dec-2011 01:52:55)

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boli
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18-Dec-2011 11:49:15#69 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

pinkyache said:

@boli, it's quite different from the Kinesis. Be interesting to hear how it compares. I wonder if it will feel hunched up compared with the other.
Shame it doesn't split into two (yes, yes Dreymar, I'm still longing for those data hands...)
Never thought I'd see one in the wild though! How much was it, if you don't mind me asking?

I haven't used it all day long yet, because I'd like to remap some stuff first, so it might be too early to judge, but I'm less hunched up than I thought I would be given the design. The hands are about the width of 2-3 normal keys further apart than on a normal keyboard, plus there is a slight outward angle to compensate for the lesser hand separation (compared to the Kinesis).
Contrary to a keyboard with staggered rows the angle makes it comfortable even for the left hand, and not just the right hand. The idea is the same as with this "wide mod" by Dreymar.

Updated:
The preorder price was $199 for the keyboard, plus $39 shipping to Switzerland. Currently there's no price on the order page, and I seem to remember that the regular price was to be higher, maybe $249? I guess it might just depend on demand. The blog page 2 still mentions $199 somewhere.

Last edited by boli (18-Dec-2011 12:06:30)

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erw
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19-Dec-2011 21:59:48#70 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

erw said:

This is my experience after using my Kinesis Advantage for six weeks:
[...]
While the keyboard is very comfortable, I'm not sure I'm going to buy another one soon.

So naive I was. I totally wanna get another one now. With reds. They're just so 'spensive :-/

http://hi-games.net/typing-test/watch?u=4610

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boli
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20-Dec-2011 00:02:40#71 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

erw said:

erw said:
While the keyboard is very comfortable, I'm not sure I'm going to buy another one soon.
So naive I was. I totally wanna get another one now. With reds. They're just so 'spensive :-/

Hehe, I'm not surprised. What's the layout you ended up with?

Yes they are expensive, and the reds are even worse - mine was $325 plus $85 shipping to Switzerland, plus customs duty and sales tax. It was well worth it though.

Last edited by boli (20-Dec-2011 00:09:55)

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Input Nirvana
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20-Dec-2011 00:07:53#72 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

erw said:

erw said:
This is my experience after using my Kinesis Advantage for six weeks:
[...]
While the keyboard is very comfortable, I'm not sure I'm going to buy another one soon.
So naive I was. I totally wanna get another one now. With reds. They're just so 'spensive :-/

YAWN...yet another totally thrilled and excited Kinesis user. Is there any other kind? ha ha

Do you have any complaints, or wants with the Kinesis?

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erw
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20-Dec-2011 13:03:41#73 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

boli said:

Hehe, I'm not surprised. What's the layout you ended up with?

Well, I bought a Swedish layout Kinesis, and I'm using it with my Danish version of Colemak. I've also swapped space and backspace and reordered the four modifier keys and the keys beside the arrow keys.

input nirvana said:

YAWN...yet another totally thrilled and excited Kinesis user. Is there any other kind? ha ha
Do you have any complaints, or wants with the Kinesis?

I think it's far from perfect. It needs more keys. Menu key, media keys. Numpad -- I really miss having a dedicated numpad. I would like to try some of the mods you have done, but it would suck to screw something up on my only Kinesis, so I guess it'll have to wait until I'm done with my studies. I've learnt to live with the rubber F-keys.

I'd also like custom key caps. Both to get a Colemak layout (or blank maybe?), but also to get less cheap sounding keys. I don't think I've tried doubleshots, but I think they're the solution. How does it feel with standard flat cap shapes instead of the custom shapes? And have you actually molded keys?

http://hi-games.net/typing-test/watch?u=4610

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boli
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20-Dec-2011 15:55:11#74 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

erw said:

Well, I bought a Swedish layout Kinesis, and I'm using it with my Danish version of Colemak. I've also swapped space and backspace and reordered the four modifier keys and the keys beside the arrow keys.

I'm particularly interested in all thumb keys as well as other miscellaneous keys, like the four keys below the bottom row on either side, and the caps lock key. Just looking for inspiration/good ideas. I'm still quite happy with what I ended up using, but it can't hurt to check out alternatives.

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Input Nirvana
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20-Dec-2011 19:05:20#75 Re: Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis

erw said:

boli said:
Hehe, I'm not surprised. What's the layout you ended up with?
Well, I bought a Swedish layout Kinesis, and I'm using it with my Danish version of Colemak. I've also swapped space and backspace and reordered the four modifier keys and the keys beside the arrow keys.
input nirvana said:
YAWN...yet another totally thrilled and excited Kinesis user. Is there any other kind? ha ha
Do you have any complaints, or wants with the Kinesis?
I think it's far from perfect. It needs more keys. Menu key, media keys. Numpad -- I really miss having a dedicated numpad. I would like to try some of the mods you have done, but it would suck to screw something up on my only Kinesis, so I guess it'll have to wait until I'm done with my studies. I've learnt to live with the rubber F-keys.
I'd also like custom key caps. Both to get a Colemak layout (or blank maybe?), but also to get less cheap sounding keys. I don't think I've tried doubleshots, but I think they're the solution. How does it feel with standard flat cap shapes instead of the custom shapes? And have you actually molded keys?

My suggestion on Colemak layout legend on the Kinesis: No legends. The Kinesis forced me to learn to touch type. Plus, with Colemak, there is so much less moving off home row...it's much easier.

Media keys? You don't use the F-keys as media keys? I just started a few months ago and like it. But you're right, it can be better.

You don't like the 2nd layer numpad?

Menu key? Is that for windows? (I'm OSX)

I don't think the doubleshots from the old Kinesis boards are that great. I had high expectations though. They are nice, but I bet we can do better. My next goal is to mold keys (I agree with the cheap sounding key statement), have you tried O-rings? They are a big plus.

There is a new thread on Geekhack (and I'm posting the info in the Split Kinesis article) about key cap info...it's not done, but check it out for reference..
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?2344 … imitations

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