• You are not logged in.

Colemak or Dvorak... Hard to choose...

  • Started by knightjp
  • 205 Replies:
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212

Colemak vs Dvorak is probably a old topic and seems to be getting old pretty fast.
To be honest I have been trying to learn touch typing for sometime. This will be a long story, so bear with me.
I came across Dvorak while trying to read reviews online about ergonomic keyboards. I had already started a touch typing lessons through typingweb.com... I was also learning programming.
Dvorak got me interested. I was fast on QWERTY, but not couldn't touchtype on it. 
I decided to give Dvorak a go.. Like the feel, but getting used to the placement af the letters was hard. While reading reviews online, I came across  Colemak. Colemak seemed interesting. Looked like it had no drawbacks at all; but that maybe just a marketing hype.
I'm kinda giving it a go.

Funny enough, whenever I paste text into http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/ its like ploying heads or tails.. even text copied from posts on this forum give us 50% Dvorak as the optimum layout. But whenever I paste in code, it always Programmer Dvorak and normal Simplified Dvorak as second. Colemak comes 3rd..

While so many reviews online tests & reviews in between dvorak and Colemak often says that the latter is better, I'm was sure that there were those who would disagree. I found two such articles...
http://xahlee.info/kbd/dvorak_vs_colemak.html
http://soukie.net/2010/06/06/of-keyboards-and-men-3/
The one thing Dvorak does not have is an active online fanbase. Like one article says, it appears Dvorak users probably like keeping this gem a secret.

They make some pretty good arguments. Like the fact that about keyboard shortcuts. Why not just map them to the F1 F2 F3 keys? That seems like good idea regardless of the layout you are using. So easy to do on Mac OS X without installing any kind of mapping software.

My experience with Colemak hasn't been an easy one & I keep on going back and forth in between layouts. I'm just not finding myself getting comfortable with Colemak. Maybe its because I've spent more time learning dvorak than I have Colemak or maybe I'm feeling more comfortable with the alternating hand action.

My arguements for chssoing one r the other are as follows:

Dvorak:
For:
1. Proven scientificially designed layout done by a seasoned medical professional.
2. Recognized ANSI layout.
3. Feels more comfortable because of the hand alteration.
4. Comes second after Programmer Dvorak for typing code.

Against:
1. Difficult to learn if you are used to QWERTY touchtyping

Colemak:
For:
1. Recongnized and standardized is Linux / Unix distros as well as Mac OS. Not an easy thing to do in such a short time. Any layout that can be widely accepted enough to be become standard in the Unix/Linux platform earns my respect and has to be good. Unix / Liux users don't mess around. I'm still stuggling to find out why Microsoft hasn't included it in Windows 8.
2. Easier to learn (apparently). I haven't felt that though. Feels a bit more difficult to me. Mybe due to the forementioned reason.
3. Keeps keyboard shortcuts and adds more.

Against:
1. Feels a bit awkward due to the same hand thing
2. Haven't found it easier to learn than Dvorak
3. Apparently not optimized for typing code.

Since Dvorak doesn't have an active fan base online, can anyone here look at my pros & cons, put personal bias aside & tell me whether anyone else felt the same and that I just need to give Colemak more time or whether this just means that those articles are right and Dvorak is the right layout for me

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 210
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,343

You seem to answer some of your own questions: Yes, this is a quite reiterated topic. Yes, you need to give it more than a week(!).

Dvorak used to have an active fan base online? What happened? Maybe "everyone" online started using other alternatives? Who knows. Or maybe you just didn't find them?

Although seasoned, Dvorak didn't have access to computer simulations or for that matter modern keyboards. He did his work using now dated methods and equipment. I think his results still are good but if you make a comparison like yours you should keep these points too in mind.

If you find Colemak hard to learn, there's always the option of going gradually via a Tarmak layout (see my sig topic). But it isn't that hard. Again, who the hell thinks they can learn a new layout in one week?!? (Unless they're well trained in layout learning and a bit of a genius, that is.)

Coding optimizations is usually seen as a modular thing: Colemak itself doesn't touch the symbol key placements but doesn't stop you from doing it yourself either. Several people on these forums have proposed optimized schemes for AltGr (lv3-4) key mappings facilitating coding. Just snope around, you'll find them.

Last edited by DreymaR (15-Dec-2012 16:59:52)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212

Thanks for the reply DreymaR...

I've been going back and forth about all this in my head while using Colemak both at work and at home. So in short I have given it a good run. I've tried looking for a dvorak related forum but nothing as turned up in any of the searches.

I still think that the hand alteration in Dvorak is better and feels better, but maybe I should just continue with Colemak for while and see if there is any change.

Any users who are also C code programmers out there?? Would like to hear your thoughts...

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 210
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,343

I kinda like that xahlee article, although it claims to be about Colemak Vs Dvorak but in reality is about something else (what's important to optimize) as far as I can see.

One very good point there is about Back/Enter/arrows/etc. In my opinion a very good answer to that is the Extend layer, using CapsLock as a modifier. Similar to the Fn key on Happy Hacking and other keyboards, but implemented in software so it works on any keyboard. (Again, see my sig topic.)

Also beneficial in my opinion is the Wide ergonomic mod that brings your pinky one key closer to the right-hand keys.

Soukie raises some interesting points but they do seem mostly like his/her own "random thoughts" as the blog is titled. Lots of things could be said about it all; one thing I noted was the usage of the top row: Here I think Dvorak made a capital mistake by giving two of the best key positions on the board to the period and comma that aren't all that frequent after all? I consider the Colemak WFP and LUY positions very easily reachable at least.

Last edited by DreymaR (15-Dec-2012 17:31:23)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 4
  • Registered: 08-Dec-2010
  • Posts: 656

Do you feel you should wait for the best food and stay indecisive until you starve? You should grab a random hamburger while waiting.

Last edited by Tony_VN (15-Dec-2012 18:37:59)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212

lol guys...
I'm sticking with colemak for the time being... Its not like I went back to QWERTY... Heaven forbid.. lol...

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212
DreymaR said:

I kinda like that xahlee article, although it claims to be about Colemak Vs Dvorak but in reality is about something else (what's important to optimize) as far as I can see.

As far as I've read, he's making a point on why wud a layout better than dvorak be necessary. Plus from the article you can see that he does say that dvorak has flaws.. its not perfect... but feels better and is more optimized.

DreymaR said:

I think Dvorak made a capital mistake by giving two of the best key positions on the board to the period and comma that aren't all that frequent after all? I consider the Colemak WFP and LUY positions very easily reachable at least.

Yeah I see that.. but you can note that the less usage of the bottom row is better than Colemak and the position of the comma & period is more better for programmers who use it more.

I believe one of the articles points to Colemak not being perfect either. Colemak vs Workman.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 1
  • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
  • Posts: 387

The Workman layout is quite bad in my opinion. It relies heavily on which keys are easy to reach and press and somehow disregards the same finger ratio, which should not be overlooked. Just had to mention it :)

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212
pafkata90 said:

The Workman layout is quite bad in my opinion. It relies heavily on which keys are easy to reach and press and somehow disregards the same finger ratio, which should not be overlooked. Just had to mention it :)

Glad you did... :)
If it was any good, it would you be included into a Linux distro... :P

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 210
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,343

Nope. Linux distributability for the most part is ruled by advocacy and more importantly implementation rather than by objective measures of quality.

I too think that Colemak is better than Workman, but I wouldn't base that opinion on inclusion in a Linux distro. ;)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 23
  • From: Belgium
  • Registered: 26-Feb-2008
  • Posts: 480
DreymaR said:

I too think that Colemak is better than Workman, but I wouldn't base that opinion on inclusion in a Linux distro. ;)

Actually the Workman layout recently got included in xkeyboard-config, so it will be available in Linux/X11 soon.

(they asked me some advice on how I got it included into several OSS systems — yes it is mostly a matter of advocacy, although it won't be scalable to have them include everyone's pet layout out there...)

Last edited by ghen (16-Dec-2012 10:39:55)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212

Ok... I cannot say that I'm feeling it easier typing on Colemak as time is goes by.. But I hope to give it a good run before I really have to say that Dvorak is better for me. I'm remaining patient with it and who knows, after sufficient time, I might choose it to stay with it.

I still feel that all the same hand action does feel weird. I cannot find a sweet speed with it. Kinda like learning to do a rift on a guitar..

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 210
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,343

It took me months to feel comfortable with Colemak, especially since I went from Dvorak. But in the end I was very happy I made the transition. I don't know how long it took you to become comfortable with Dvorak but it seems to me that you're quite impatient?

Hand rolls are very natural I feel. I often roll my fingers on the table because it's pleasing.

Last edited by DreymaR (16-Dec-2012 13:37:30)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212
DreymaR said:

It took me months to feel comfortable with Colemak, especially since I went from Dvorak. But in the end I was very happy I made the transition. I don't know how long it took you to become comfortable with Dvorak but it seems to me that you're quite impatient?

Hand rolls are very natural I feel. I often roll my fingers on the table because it's pleasing.

LOL.. impatient? It took me only a week to get used to dvorak. I went cold turkey from the start.
Same with Colemak.. straight cold turkey, both at work and a home.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 210
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,343

Only a week to Dvorak, that is impressive. It took me months, hence my assumption.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212
DreymaR said:

Only a week to Dvorak, that is impressive. It took me months, hence my assumption.

Dvorak was the first layout I started learning to touchtype & well I didn't say that was completely touch typing.. I learned the layout within a week and was able to get a good speed of 30wpm with occasionally looking at the keyboard. That was just about the same as what I was doing on QWERTY for 12 years... I spent a month going through touch typing on dvorak.
My problem with Colemak is that it is taking me longer to learn the complete layout and get to the same speed as I was.
Did my brief stint with dvorak mess me up?

Last edited by knightjp (16-Dec-2012 16:05:37)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 210
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,343

Mine did, but it wasn't all that brief. I typed a 50-something WPM QWERTY before I learnt Dvorak and after a year or so I could type Dvorak at 60 WPM or so - but I hadn't trained all that much before so it's not certain whether the speed increase was all due to layout advantages or had a component of training in it.

My switch to Colemak after that didn't feel as easy as it should've and I blamed that on my Dvorak training. I came up with Tarmak only later; maybe I could've come up with a gradual route and had an easier time of it? Now we'll never now. Tarmak is supposed to help the QWERTY-to-Colemak transition so it won't do a Dvorak typist any good.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212

I think it was the fact that the dvorak layout was designed to be easy to learn. After all the alternating hands approach does seem ti make it easier.
I briefly tried to learn touch typing in QWERTY & I must say it was harder.
Perhaps the close to QWERTY design of colemak makes it the same for those who are new to touchtyping or for those who are coming from dvorak.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212

Ok... I can still say that I'm not a complete colemak convert. But is slowly geting easier to type on it. What I will give the Colemak design is the shortcuts. I use standard keyboard shortcuts at work alot and the I must sy that the fact that i has them and more like CTRL + P for print is a huge bonus.

I cna officially say that I like the Colemak layout, but if I want to get into programming in Objective C, according to http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/ , dvorak is better.

In all the comparisons, dvorak simplified comes in second for code and normal texts.. But Colemak comes in 3rd for code and is optimum for normal text. Am I crazy or does dvorak seem more consistant...

Anyone on Objective C programming use colemak or feel the same??

Last edited by knightjp (21-Dec-2012 23:57:06)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 4
  • Registered: 08-Dec-2010
  • Posts: 656

Do you type code all day? You must chat or type emails sometimes I suppose.

So a mixture of code, chat and email is what you should put to the test, not coding text alone.

By the way you can choose either of them, and go for it, or stay indecisive for a few more decades.

Last edited by Tony_VN (22-Dec-2012 04:17:35)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212

@Tony_VN LOL.. nice one.. As a matter of fact, I type emails and letters all day. I'm in admin. I wanted to learn programming on the side.
Considering that most of my day at work I'll be typing normal chat and text and the Colemak is the best for it, I'd wager to bet that its the right choice and the smart choice.

What I did though was take your suggestion and put in all the texts and stuff that I usually type( blogs, letters, chat, etc) and sample code into  http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/ and this is what I got... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid … 4677261784

Then added more text that I usually type in my work place and more chats and blog posts and this is the second set of results... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid … 38a98a4356

This is kinda like choosing Ford vs Mopar on the hotrodding scene. Both equally good choices in engines and you tend to want the strengths you get in both.

Last edited by knightjp (22-Dec-2012 07:28:47)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 210
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,343

For coding, I believe in two things: Extend mappings for navigation/editing (turns your whole computer into Vim light!), and lv3-4 mappings or a "coding layer" for easy access to brackets and stuff you use a lot while coding. The latter is somewhat language dependent though, so my main belief is in modularity!

Colemak is a letter block layout. In a modularity-based approach you optimize the letter block separately (apart from the semicolon that QWERTY stupidly put in a way too good position!) and then worry about the other stuff if you have to.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: -1
  • Registered: 14-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 212
DreymaR said:

Colemak is a letter block layout. In a modularity-based approach you optimize the letter block separately (apart from the semicolon that QWERTY stupidly put in a way too good position!) and then worry about the other stuff if you have to.

I guess that Colemak is growing on me. I'm liking the easy access to keyboard shortcuts. Still not finding the same hand thing easy though. probably something that I need to get more used to I guess. This so feels like learning a guitar rift. My fingers had a tough time with that as well.

DreymaR said:

For coding, I believe in two things: Extend mappings for navigation/editing (turns your whole computer into Vim light!), and lv3-4 mappings or a "coding layer" for easy access to brackets and stuff you use a lot while coding. The latter is somewhat language dependent though, so my main belief is in modularity!

Did you see the results I got? All depending on how many times I paste coding in between the texts. I think that Soukie person was right when he/she wrote the blog. Those results are quite unreliable and depend on the individual texts. You could probably get the results to be whatever you want it by putting the right text.

Haven't heard from anyone who is a C code programmer and uses Colemak yet. I think @pinkyache uses dvorak if I'm not mistaken.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 16-Dec-2012
  • Posts: 75

@knightjp I can understand you. I had the same problems you had... So I ditched Colemak... (I am currently using a modified Workman with I and O swapped, but i don't recommend it)

I'd recommend for you, based only on my own limited experience:

- If it ain't broken don't fix it, if Dvorak worked for it, consider using it. (many people can't re-map shorcuts to new keys because they already use other shorcuts on those keys). If you don't see what the problem with Dvorak is, it is because you don't have any, so use it. (I can't, because I can't do without ZXCV)
- You can also decide to keep using Colemak and measure your progress with online tests https://www.keyhero.com/typing-tests-wpm/
if you consider that you are not progressing much in a week or two then you might again consider Dvorak... or stick with Colemak...
- If you ever experience pain using a layout, watch out!

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 1
  • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
  • Posts: 387

A week or two might not be enough for some - people adapt differently. And btw "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" is the main brake of any kind of progress.

Offline
  • 0