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Colemak or Dvorak... Hard to choose...

  • Started by knightjp
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pafkata90 said:

A week or two might not be enough for some - people adapt differently.

Your right about that.

pafkata90 said:

And btw "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" is the main brake of any kind of progress.

Not necessarily, Dvorak is broken for me so I have to find a solution. If Dvorak is not broken for him he can use it.

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knightjp said:

Haven't heard from anyone who is a C code programmer and uses Colemak yet. I think @pinkyache uses dvorak if I'm not mistaken.

I think the whole coding argument is vastly overrated.  Coding typically consists of short bursts of typing, altered with editing and navigation commands, but never a sustained, "rhythmic" typing effort like writing an e-mail.  If you want to finish your C program earlier, look for a faster compiler not a faster keyboard layout. :-)

Comfort, on the other hand, is a real factor.  C programmers will surely want to put those curly brackets in a more convenient, non-shifted position.  They might even swap the whole number row with the shifted characters.  But such optimizations are layout agnostic.

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No it isn't. Dvorak overfixed things because he didn't mind "fixing" the parts of QWERTY that weren't broken. And being needlessly hard to learn didn't help his layout.

If something is broken it can be fixed of course. Inertia can be a problem there, yes. The clue to real success is realizing that roads have two ditches. ;)

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Still the number row, the odd function key, and a few symbols are a little agro for me.  I use C like syntax (not C though).  I don't really care about compiler speed.  I care more about my compile speed.  But yes, I'm sure there are countless small tweaks that would help me code better.  Like flipping the number row.

My rate in churning out code fluctuates wildly.  The most useful thing for me about my improved typing (in helping me code) is finding IRC comfortable, and faster email authoring - which used to be much more of a drag.

I'd be better off focusing my efforts on mastering my editor (or changing it), and adding some custom shortcuts.

Last edited by pinkyache (25-Dec-2012 02:54:49)

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@pinyache.. what r u using now??

I must say that Colemak right now is becoming easier for me. Like I said earlier, what I'm enjoying about the layout are the shortcuts. Brilliant..
I still think that Dvorak is easier to learn than Colemak. I also found that my accuracy was better while learning the layout too.
With Colemak, the same hand is more harder to get used to.

At work, I cannot have any remapping software installed to make the F1 F2 F3 thing to make the shortcuts easier for dvorak. I could check with the IT dept on that. MS Windows does not make it easy. At home, my mac makes remapping so much more easier without any need for a 3rd party software.

Using keyboard shortcuts does make it easy for what I do. I managed to get Colemak installed, which makes the shortcuts better actually. Considering that I do coding very sparingly as a hobby kind of thing and the shortcuts makes life easier at work, Colemak is probably the better way to go for me. Can't believe I'm saying this.

But I will recommend dvorak for anyone who has never done any touch typing before, does not need to use keyboard shortcuts that much and has the ability to remap keys major shortcuts to F keys.
If that person is a QWERTY typist, I would recommend Colemak.

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I have to agree with one think – it's easier to achieve better accuracy with Dvorak because of the higher hand alternation ratio.

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pafkata90 said:

I have to agree with one think – it's easier to achieve better accuracy with Dvorak because of the higher hand alternation ratio.

Yeah that is probably the reason for that.

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So you're saying that if one were to poll accuracy data from a hundred colemakers versus a hundred dvorakers of similar levels of experience (or how many it'd take for significance), there'd be a difference?

I doubt that.

Last edited by DreymaR (26-Dec-2012 00:25:49)

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I doubt it.  My most common typo's are swapping two letters, or even letter+succeeding space.  I think Dvorak would make that much worse (for me).

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I'm no expert but from all the reviews I read of current Colemak users who switched after a brief stint with Dvorak, claim to have achieved better accuracy when using the dvorak layout once they used it for a couple of months; over the QWERTY layout.
You also notice that the accuracy wasn't listed as a reason for switching to Colemak in an of those reviews. Not saying that you couldn't get the same levels of accuracy with Colemak... :P

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What I meant by my bad wording was that it's easier to maintain higher accuracy with dvorak while the speed increase is still rapid. After getting to a decent speed, close to your maximum, they feel different but I wouldn't say the one is "more accurate" than the other.

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lol... yeah but during the learning process, I notice that on dvorak myself I was makin less mistakes. I probably have to contribute my making mistakes on colemak to the dvorak layout too. Not sure, but it seems that dvorak may have messed me up a bit.

Last edited by knightjp (30-Dec-2012 13:07:57)
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My experience with Colemak is going well. I like the layout and the feel. But since I was using Dvorak, I've got this feeling at the back of my mind that switching to Colemak means a step backwards; ergonomically.
What I mean is, I still have this nagging feeling that Dvorak is the better designed layout; even though the pseudoscience says otherwise.

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knightjp said:

My experience with Colemak is going well. I like the layout and the feel. But since I was using Dvorak, I've got this feeling at the back of my mind that switching to Colemak means a step backwards; ergonomically.
What I mean is, I still have this nagging feeling that Dvorak is the better designed layout; even though the pseudoscience says otherwise.

On one hand anyone could say maybe you're the type of person who gets obsessed about layouts,.... someone has even gone as far as to ask you if you were spamming the forums....

.... But on the other hand,.... the gut feeling when using Colemak... trust your intuition..use your illusion..or keep trying Colemak... your call...

Last edited by vjustin (05-Jan-2013 07:38:57)
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vjustin said:
knightjp said:

My experience with Colemak is going well. I like the layout and the feel. But since I was using Dvorak, I've got this feeling at the back of my mind that switching to Colemak means a step backwards; ergonomically.
What I mean is, I still have this nagging feeling that Dvorak is the better designed layout; even though the pseudoscience says otherwise.

On one hand anyone could say maybe you're the type of person who gets obsessed about layouts,.... someone has even gone as far as to ask you if you were spamming the forums....

.... But on the other hand,.... the gut feeling when using Colemak... trust your intuition..use your illusion..or keep trying Colemak... your call...

The thing that keeps me on Colemak is the memory of pasting all those texts into that layout site and seeing the result as Colemak. Another thing is the shortcuts. I use a fair bit of Adobe software at work too and keykoard shortcuts tend to make life easier. I mean you pretty much do quite a bit of one handed shortcuts while your hand is on the mouse. So that saying, Colemak seems to be the best bet.
But like I said, I've got this nagging feeling that by choosing Colemak, I'm missing something that will prove important later on. I hope that is not the case. Maybe its the near QWERTY layout. Perhaps something has been wired into my brain, after reading all those Dvorak articles, that QWERTY is the enemy of progress and that anything close to it, isn't a 100% total improvement.

At work they are talking of giving us new computers. If that happens, I know its not going to have Colemak installed, 'cuz Microsoft stupidly doesn't recognize it. I could ask the IT guys ot install it for me. But this needs to be done everytime. With Dvorak, its pre-installed with every single OS out there. So there is no issue. Just select it.

Typing on either one to me comes to just about the same. Shortcuts, is the tricky bit for me. With Colemak, the one handed shortcuts increase, rather than decrease. Ctrl+P for instance doesn't need two hands nor does it need me to take my hand off the mouse, like in QWERTY / Dvorak. Ctrl+T for tab browsing on Safari, Chrome & Firefox is about easier and less of stretch than on QWERTY, and doesn't need the two hands like on Dvorak.

But then again, using keyboard shortcuts, means that you are using both hands are on the keyboard all the time; unless you are a CAD & graphics professional.

If I'm completely honest, Dvorak was designed for typing in english; while reducing all carpal tunnel, RSI, etc & increasing accuracy and productivity. All in all a really great design. Comfortable, those who have never touch-typed before will find learning breeze. I'd recommend it to anyone.
Colemak on the other hand lends itself to better general use and computing. It follows similar, it not the same, rules as Dvorak to make typing in english easier than QWERTY, without sacrificing the other benefits that QWERTY users will enjoy.

Last edited by knightjp (05-Jan-2013 10:47:20)
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>>The thing that keeps me on Colemak is the memory of pasting all those texts into that layout site and seeing the result as Colemak.

You need to be careful when choosing the input text for those sites. You don't want texts that are about something too specific and repeat a few words a lot. Probably the best text you can use would be a mix of texts about different topics.

>>I've got this nagging feeling that by choosing Colemak, I'm missing something that will prove important later on.

In real life you don't buy a lamborghini, or marry to a victoria's secret model. You buy a normal car and marry a normal girl. And in this case Colemak is like a pretty girl that can cook, drive and is a good mother. You want her to be a supermodel too... good luck finding her.

You mentioned you wanted a layout that is good for programming. Programming syntax could change any day, or never change. Python don't use the same symbols as Objective C. And what if tomorrow Apple switches to Python, Lisp or the next best thing? Your layout optimized for Objective-C would be useless. You'd better marry the girl that can cook, is pretty and will be a good mother.

Last edited by vjustin (05-Jan-2013 16:42:02)
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vjustin said:

You'd better marry the girl that can cook, is pretty and will be a good mother.

OK... QWERTY it is then. LOL.
If you want a describe a layout like a supermodel, then that has to be Colemak.
Supermodels are a rare breed, and I saw a poll once that showed that there were more QWERTY & Dvorak users than Colemak.

vjustin said:

You need to be careful when choosing the input text for those sites. You don't want texts that are about something too specific and repeat a few words a lot. Probably the best text you can use would be a mix of texts about different topics.

I did a number of tests with a variety of texts that I use at work and at home. Blog posts, code, letters, etc... I even did it all at the same time to get the same proper result. Each time, it gave me a different result. But for the most time, I got Colemak. The more code I added, simplified dvorak got the top place.

vjustin said:

In real life you don't buy a lamborghini, or marry to a victoria's secret model. You buy a normal car and marry a normal girl. And in this case Colemak is like a pretty girl that can cook, drive and is a good mother. You want her to be a supermodel too... good luck finding her.

LOL.. since when did this become about my being single? Anyways, I know who that is. I found her or rather she found me. Haha

vjustin said:

You mentioned you wanted a layout that is good for programming. Programming syntax could change any day, or never change. Python don't use the same symbols as Objective C. And what if tomorrow Apple switches to Python, Lisp or the next best thing? Your layout optimized for Objective-C would be useless. You'd better marry the girl that can cook, is pretty and will be a good mother.

If I was to choose a layout good for programming, Programmer dvorak would be my pick. But I also need a layout that is good for other things as well.
Programming is going to be a small part as a hobby. At work, I write letters and admin work, use graphics porgrams like Adobe Illustrator. I find that the shortcuts are the best on Colemak, especially when using graphics software.
That is probably one reason why I would choose Colemak over Dvorak. But for comfort, I still like Dvorak.

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knightjp said:
vjustin said:

You'd better marry the girl that can cook, is pretty and will be a good mother.

OK... QWERTY it is then. LOL.

No, she is not. Qwerty is a girl that is not pretty, she's ugly and fat, you learn to live with her, you think you are happy, but in the end she'll end up hurting you and you will be forced to leave her, and you will wonder why you didn't leave her earlier.

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vjustin said:
knightjp said:
vjustin said:

You'd better marry the girl that can cook, is pretty and will be a good mother.

OK... QWERTY it is then. LOL.

No, she is not. Qwerty is a girl that is not pretty, she's ugly and fat, you learn to live with her, you think you are happy, but in the end she'll end up hurting you and you will be forced to leave her, and you will wonder why you didn't leave her earlier.

LOL... totally agree with you there. :P

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Don't marry a supermodel. No end to troubles there; they're pretty messed-up people I think. ;)

Trust me on this: If you pick Dvorak or Colemak and stick with it, you won't regret it. I went from Dvorak to Colemak after using Dvorak quite a while because I liked the similarity to QWERTY (which lets me switch back and forth easily when needed), hotkeys and other things. But either layout will serve you really well once you know it fully. I don't think there's much of a difference when it comes to ergonomy (except in special cases like '-ls l' for Linux Dvorak users) and speed overall. If you obsess you'll always find something that seems important or feels special in some way but in the end it won't be.

Dvorak can usually be found on most computers. Colemak can be a bit hard to find on Mac or Windows machines where you can't run PKL (but there the similarity to QWERTY plays in again so when I'm computer roaming and have to hack in something quick it's no biggie - I have to use QWERTY on my Playstation for instance and that works acceptably). Using PKL (Win) or XKB mods (Linux) I've managed to make Colemak a real typing powerhouse with my other tweaks in the mix. Again, trust me on this: It won't disappoint if you stick with it.

For coding, I think AltGr mappings are useful but what language(s) you use plays in quite heavily. Look into tomlu's work for instance (I don't use those myself but I hear they're good). For my own coding what feels most important is the Extend layer that allows me to navigate and edit easily. Raw typing speed just doesn't play into my own coding as I never type code at full speed for many lines at a time! It's always type a little, then move around and edit, then type a little more.

Last edited by DreymaR (06-Jan-2013 11:24:47)

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DreymaR said:

Colemak can be a bit hard to find on Mac or Windows [...]

Recently, Colemak has available as a built-in layout on Mac OS – since 10.7 Lion, I think.

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debois said:
DreymaR said:

Colemak can be a bit hard to find on Mac or Windows [...]

Recently, Colemak has available as a built-in layout on Mac OS – since 10.7 Lion, I think.

Right you are.. Microsoft is still playing catch up.. Sigh...  lol..

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Actually, Microsoft has a completely different policy. Not playing catch-up, more like playing hard to get. ;)

Apparently, for them to consider a layout it must either be supported by a national state (which from what I've heard is a problem for ethnic groups like the Uighurs who don't get either China or Russia to support them having their own layout) and/or be readily available as a commercial hardware solution. So because there are hardware Dvorak boards there's a MS Dvorak layout. And because the chicken came from an egg it could lay an egg... hang on, that's just stupid isn't it? Yup.

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I just don't see why Microsoft can't be more like linux & Mac OS... They get progress without all this bureaucracy...

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Made my choice. I'm gonna stick with Colemak. The major factor in choosing it wasn't about comfort or speed. It was mainly about the shortcuts. As new applications come, more and more features are introduced with shortcuts and gestures, so Colemak should be a better choice since all those apps would have QWERTY in mind (unfortunately) and Colemak is the closest to it. Besides, I have been using it for a while now; at home and at work. Another actor is that I've changed the keys on my keybard at work and if anyone tries to use my computer, the close to QWERTY layout should make it easier for the other users. 

One of the articles I posted earlier stated that the author suffered from pains & injuries after using the normal QWERTY Z/X/C/V shortcuts for a long time. That was his reason to switch to Dvorak and map keys to F1 F2 F3 F4. Certainly hope that doesn't happen to me. :P

Last edited by knightjp (06-Jan-2013 21:54:40)
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