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Colemak or Dvorak... Hard to choose...

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Yes, cause mapping ZXCV to F1234 has so much to do with the layout :P

Anyway, glad you've made up your mind and wish you much joy in typing with Colemak.

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knightjp said:

I still feel that all the same hand action does feel weird. I cannot find a sweet speed with it. Kinda like learning to do a rift on a guitar..

Most of the fast guitar riff/shred technique involve same hand action, hammer-ons, pull-offs and slides. These compound notes could be picked individually but it's much easier to use same hand action, as its faster than the coordination between hands.
Consider the following example... try tapping your fingers on the desk, evenly and controlled, as fast as you can, and you'll find that you will hit with your pinky, then same hand ring, middle and index, and then switch hand and do the same on the other side. In my personal opinion this feels very similar to the same-hand inward rolls that are common in Colemak, and a large part of the fun and pleasure of using it.

Programming wise, I think there has been some study done on character occurances in different languages, but very little that I can find which also include the keystrokes required to edit (a huge amount of moving the cursor, cutting, pasting, jumping words and to/from parenthesis, etc). This kind of action is not visible in the final finished code but does account for a sizeable percentage of the keystrokes made. Probably high enough to warrant moving some of the letters away from the bottom row, if you ask me.. and it's entirely overlooked in the majority of studies. The vi editor puts the cursor movement right under your fingers on the home row, and this is the single best shortcut I've ever come across when programming. I went as far as to add a modifier key so I always have the cursor keys there, even in other apps. Love it!

Lastly, dvorak put L and S on the same pinky finger, making it brutally hard on unix users. It might be scientifically designed by a professional, but typing back in the 30's wasn't exactly the same as it is today.

Last edited by innovine (08-Jan-2013 08:14:51)
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I believe in the Vim way, in part: Modal navigation rather than mixing up arrows into your letter block. Vim itself is just one editor and a fairly special one though - the trick is to have similar power available everywhere you type.

As I've often mentioned, I use the Extend mode for that, hitting Caps to navigate/edit/shortcut. Like Innovine implies, the power of having the nav block right under your home position like that outweighs having to hit Caps (or another modifier of your choice) for it by far.

Good point on the speed of rolling too. May take a little getting used to but rolling is inherently very fast.

Last edited by DreymaR (08-Jan-2013 10:57:17)

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innovine said:

Programming wise, I think there has been some study done on character occurances in different languages, but very little that I can find which also include the keystrokes required to edit (a huge amount of moving the cursor, cutting, pasting, jumping words and to/from parenthesis, etc).

I was looking for the same thing and found only Xah Lee's Emacs command frequency table. I'd be very interested if you found any others?

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I'm having trouble. I've been using the Colemak layout for some time and for some reason, I'm just not getting the placement of the letters.
What I like about Dvorak was that I was able to learn the layout very easily. Perhaps that hand alteration helps.

Has me confused on whether I made a bad choice in Colemak. Colemak makes the normal keyboard shortcuts more easier. With Dvorak, I loose the shortcuts, but I feel typing more easier. I want to make Colemak work, but I'm just struggling so much. My transition to Dvorak was in truth far more easier.

Sometimes I think that I should move to Dvorak and use the left hand mouse like Pinkyache. The left hand mousing is because most of the shortcut keys are moved over to the right. I tried it before, but felt the shortcuts were funny. But at this point, I'd give up the easy shortcuts on Colemak just to be able to write a simple email.

Last edited by knightjp (21-Jan-2013 21:08:40)
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How long have you used Colemak, since you only said "for some time"? And how long have you used Dvorak before that? And how long have you touch typed Qwerty before switching the first time (if at all)?

Sorry if you've answered these earlier, I don't remember :)

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pafkata90 said:

How long have you used Colemak, since you only said "for some time"? And how long have you used Dvorak before that? And how long have you touch typed Qwerty before switching the first time (if at all)?

Sorry if you've answered these earlier, I don't remember :)

Supposed to have been using Colemak cold turkey for about almost a month. I've never touch typed in QWERTY before. I only learned to touch-type on Dvorak 1st. I used Dvorak for about a month or a month & a half, max. Prior to that, I used my own hunt & peck method on QWERTY.

Last edited by knightjp (21-Jan-2013 21:27:54)
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Yes, this is the reason why Dvorak seems easier to learn than Colemak. Colemak's learning accessibility is due to its similarity with Qwerty, so any Qwerty touch typist finds it much easier to learn than many alternatives. Dvorak is designed to be easy to learn considering the learner isn't already a Qwerty touch typist, so its fair to think it's easier to learn than Colemak for newcomers to touch typing.

I can only help you with my own experience. I touch typed Qwerty for only half a year before deciding to switch to Dvorak. I used that for a couple of months and reached my Qwerty touch typing speed, which even though wasn't my max.possible, still was faster than my previous way of typing. Then I switched to Colemak and saw a progress exactly twice as fast as the one with Dvorak. These days (two years with Colemak) I type with about double my speed of that time.

My conclusion from that is that both Dvorak and Colemak can feel great, once you get used to them – yes, I did love the feeling of typing on Dvorak. But I also love the one with Colemak, they're just very different. I see how Dvorak would be more pleasing for you, given that you haven't touch typed before and it's got higher hand alternation. Colemak requires a little bit better finger coordination and... independence if I could call it that. But once you get used to it, it definitely isn't something you'd find slowing you down or reducing your comfort. On the contrary – the finger rolls, which so many of the words use, are a pleasure to type. Some of them even feel awkward in the beginning (YOU, -ION...) but I love them now. Typing with completely relaxed fingers feels like rolling my fingers on the table most of the time – so effortless.

I'm not trying to bash either layout. Each has advantages. My personal opinion is that Dvorak's only advantage is its high hand alternation, which certainly isn't bad, but the finger rolls on Colemak are such delight to use, that I'm not sure which is preferable (for me). On the other hand Colemak has many other advantages, which I don't think I need to go into. And some of them are also dependent on how one uses the layout – shortcuts, type of software used, text typed, etc.

Hope that was helpful and not very boring.

PS: And, of course, my advice to you: Since you're new to touch typing, give it a bit more time. I know how that sounds but I think it'll grow on you. Type Colemak for at least two months. Reach a good speed, you're happy with. Then, if you still have your doubts, try Dvorak. If one thing is certain, it is that you're the best judge on what's best for you. If you're looking for a good layout in the long term, maybe it's worth it to try both and choose the one, better for you.

PS2: I just checked the thread's OP and remembered it. Most of the stuff I mentioned were already talked about, so sorry for the probably longer post than needed, but my point stays the same :)

Last edited by pafkata90 (22-Jan-2013 00:36:16)
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I also had tried Dvorak for a week before I moved onto Colemak, so I think I had some of your confusion. It's triple layout confusion, not a simple one.

Your brain is hurting and your muscles are confused. There is little outward expression except very high error rate.

Keeping three layouts at the same time is next to impossible.

Last edited by Tony_VN (22-Jan-2013 03:39:04)
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Once again, pafkata makes excellent points! If I had a post-of-the-month award to hand out...

I concur that Dvorak might be easier to learn for a "non-QWERTY" typist (that is, one not used to touch typing QWERTY and not overly familiar with the layout beforehand).

If I may add one little thing beyond the learning and shortcut issues, it's layout switching. I find it easier to go back and forth between the occasional QWERTY board I have to use and my Colemak machines, than I did when using Dvorak. I've heard people theorize that it could be an advantage to use very different layouts because then your brain can "keep them in separate drawers" whereas two similar layouts might get mixed up more easily, but I myself don't hold to that. I find it comfortable that only 17 keys are different instead of nearly twice as many.

And yeah, I too would advise you to take into account that you've been changing back and forth and probably are confused as hell right now. ;)

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While taking into account that I've only been using Colemak for a short time. I guess I can hold on a little longer. But I gotta say that it is getting very frustrating trying to type a sentence & not being able to get a single word right even when you're looking at the keys; even after using this for a month. It now takes me ages to get a bit of typing done at work.

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Perhaps you have replied this before but don't you play any typing games or tests? Which ones?

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I enjoyed @pafkata's post too.  A nice read. 

@knightjp, sounds as if you are warping your mind a wee bit.  Lay off the speed for a while.  Perhaps have a go at a typing tutor that can spew out random characters, and take it slow.  I think that might relieve you of some of the other learnt patterns that are fighting their way through and tripping you up.  And perhaps flirt a little less with multiple layouts!  It can be irritating enough getting your head around a few small nuances between layouts - something like the difference between GB and US.  You get used to it, but it can be an irritant.

Last edited by pinkyache (22-Jan-2013 21:01:31)

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Thanks for the words guys.

And this is a good advice – try increasing your accuracy with a tutor, typing difficult words or random characters. Anybody would be frustrated to type any layout if he has to bother with fixing mistakes too often. I (and probably almost everybody) started really enjoying Colemak only after achieving decent accuracy.

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pinkyache said:

I enjoyed @pafkata's post too.  A nice read. 

@knightjp, sounds as if you are warping your mind a wee bit.  Lay off the speed for a while.  Perhaps have a go at a typing tutor that can spew out random characters, and take it slow.  I think that might relieve you of some of the other learnt patterns that are fighting their way through and tripping you up.  And perhaps flirt a little less with multiple layouts!  It can be irritating enough getting your head around a few small nuances between layouts - something like the difference between GB and US.  You get used to it, but it can be an irritant.

Thanks for the post. The problem is that I've been using colemak cold turkey for about a month now. Both at work and at home. I know in other posts, I've spoken about trying Dvorak & the left-hand mousing, but that was only for a few minutes.
I've even gotten rid of all the lousy keyboards & stuck to a good 'ol HP keyboard that I absolutely love. I've been using this keyboard at work & at home, I have a mac. So using the same kind of keyboard on the mac to me is a good idea as it gives me the same feel as on my windows PC at work. HAHA... A HP keyboard on a Mac... You can't change the keys on these keyboards as the J and the F are different. But that has been told to me that it is a good thing as it forces me to practise typing without looking at the keys.

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Yes, switching layout is similar to jumping off a cliff. You cannot look back, i.e. looking at the keys while learning to touch type.

Only brave and fearless members should apply.

And it's useless to drive with one foot on a Ford (Qwerty) and another foot on a BMW (Colemak). You cannot run doubly faster that way.

Last edited by Tony_VN (24-Jan-2013 04:06:41)
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Update:

Good news is that ever since my last post, Colemak has been getting better and easier.
However, I cannot tell you how tempted I've been to switch over to Dvorak and using left hand mousing. Simply for crazy reasons.
1. I won't have to worry about the company getting me a new system, 'cuz dvorak comes installed.
2. I would have the layout directly in front of me & not angled to the left; giving a more ergonomic feel.
3. I pretty much all ready know the layout.

I even went to the point of printing a dvorak layout to follow. But looking at it and the odd positions my fingers would be for shortcuts, I didn't want to go down that route. It might work for pinkyache, but not for me. I need my shortcuts.

My Colemak, does get better but every time I try to post something on here, I revert back to the mess. I guess that is psychological, or just plain psycho. LOL.
I can feel an improvement and that is a good thing.

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What do you mean by point 2? I didn't understand you there.

After you get comfortable with the positions of the letters, you'll start enjoying it much more, I'm sure. It's important to feel the progress, so that's good :)

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Point 2 is about the left-hand mousing as I read it. It's a point, for sure. I want a tenkeyless keyboard myself, using Extend-type mapping layers to access the NumPad.

Last edited by DreymaR (28-Jan-2013 14:15:22)

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Yeah by number 2, I think he means that the B (Qwerty) is inline with the naval.  Which means the keyboard is directly in front of you rather than off centre to the left.  Mousing on the right with the numpad, might make you sweep the whole keyboard left a little.

@knightjp, I'm still intrigued by the shortcut issue.  Can you spell out those shortcuts that you'd miss please.

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pinkyache said:

Yeah by number 2, I think he means that the B (Qwerty) is inline with the naval.  Which means the keyboard is directly in front of you rather than off centre to the left.  Mousing on the right with the numpad, might make you sweep the whole keyboard left a little.

@knightjp, I'm still intrigued by the shortcut issue.  Can you spell out those shortcuts that you'd miss please.

Right you are Pinkyache... That's what I meant.
As for the shortcuts,
Ctrl + Z\X\C\V
Ctrl + P\F\S\A

All easily accessible on the left hand alone. On Dvorak its a bit of a stretch. LOL
I'm still a fan of the Dvorak layout though...

Last edited by knightjp (29-Jan-2013 14:43:06)
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knightjp said:

Ctrl + Z\X\C\V
Ctrl + P\F\S\A

Aha, I guess I wanted to work out which you were desperate to keep on one hand.  I get that you could be mousing with the right, and want to use Z X C V and perhaps the A, but I wouldn't have thought the others mattered.

Not having some game keys is more of an issue for me than the above shortcuts, as they tend to be ordered around WASD.   When gaming, rather than remapping I switch the layout back to Qwerty, but that pretty much rules out any in-game typing for me (not that I game much).

Last edited by pinkyache (29-Jan-2013 15:04:47)

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I don't game. Used to AOE, but gave up considering I was never smart enough.. LOL .
But to be honest, while I like the shortcuts, I'm finding my fingers hurting after a while of typing on Colemak. Never had that happen when I was using Dvorak. Is that a normal feeling as part of the learning process?

I still like the actually idea of lefthand mousing. Puts the keyboard right in front. :)

Last edited by knightjp (29-Jan-2013 18:52:36)
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pinkyache said:
knightjp said:

Ctrl + Z\X\C\V
Ctrl + P\F\S\A

Aha, I guess I wanted to work out which you were desperate to keep on one hand.  I get that you could be mousing with the right, and want to use Z X C V and perhaps the A, but I wouldn't have thought the others mattered.

Not having some game keys is more of an issue for me than the above shortcuts, as they tend to be ordered around WASD.   When gaming, rather than remapping I switch the layout back to Qwerty, but that pretty much rules out any in-game typing for me (not that I game much).

Z X C V is pretty much it. I know that it is not the best reason, but its something that plays an important part of an advanced PC user's day. Admin staff in our office use it a lot. I never thought that I would miss it until I didn't have it anymore. Finding out that I can have my cake and eat it too with Colemak, kinda seals the deal. But we rebels always like the challenge, hence being drawn back to dvorak.

pinkyache: I'm kinda intrigued that as to why you have not switched to Colemak. Is it because of the difficulty to switch after using Dvorak for so long? Or something else.. ?

Last edited by knightjp (30-Jan-2013 12:48:17)
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You know there is an option to leave the Ctrl keys as they are on Qwerty? So when holding Ctrl, the other key you press is the one from Qwerty, regardless of your layout.

Or another option could be to use AHK to change the default Ctrl+ZXCV to anything you want.

Just saying, maybe if you really prefer Dvorak and that's the only thing stopping you, you can consider it. There are, of course problems with that solution as well…

Last edited by pafkata90 (30-Jan-2013 13:38:53)
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