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Colemak or Dvorak... Hard to choose...

  • Started by knightjp
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  • From: Viken, Norway
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I have yet to find anyone who actively enjoys using a nipple-stick. I think they may be hard to control or something.

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DreymaR said:

I have yet to find anyone who actively enjoys using a nipple-stick. I think they may be hard to control or something.

You're right though. It's harder to use than a normal trackpad. Makes you think why it was even invented. I used to think that it was invented by a real perv... LOL

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No, it's a very tempting idea: The middle of the keyboard would be a perfect place for a mouse controller – if it didn't take up much space. I've seen trackballs that might work; I'd like to try one. But in my opinion they should just widen the keyboard a little (one key's width is fine) to accommodate a ball on the home row and buttons on the bottom row.

Something like the Unicomp Trackball keyboard meeting their Trackpoint keyboard (seems that IBM invented that stick, pervs or not).

While they were at it, they should fix the silly left-hand row stagger to make a more "truly ergonomic" keyboard. :)

   CmkBoardFig_StaggerConcept.png
   Here's an image I made once to show a correctly staggered board with a trackpoint.
   Half a key wider and a small ball would've fit in there, with two button keys below.

Last edited by DreymaR (25-Feb-2013 13:29:05)

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That looks like a great start (though better with Dvorak of course ;) ), I'll name it 'Dreymar's Symmetric 6.'  Or the 'Bi-Sixual'.

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Some people love the nipple stick.  Hear the groans of the Thinkpad users, when they added a touchpad!  I quite like the track sensor thing that they put on Blackberries, that has replaced the old trackball.  I'd be happy to use the nipple if it were far more, dare I say it, sensitive.


I started to think how useful it might be to have an available nipple on each hand.  You might be able to do something very special by tweaking both simultaneously.  That would allow then for a gorge down the centre.

Last edited by pinkyache (25-Feb-2013 13:54:25)

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I'm silently reading the discussion, giggling like a 5th grader every now and then :D

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My suggested keyboard isn't bi-sixual! It's unisix. You can choose which hand to touch its six with though, which is nice if one hand gets tired from working the six too much.

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I've been using Colemak for quite some time now and I still cannot type a single sentence without making a whole load of mistakes. Even now as I'm typing this...
Makes me wanna go over to Dvorak... LOL.

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If you keep changing layouts every now and then, you can be sure that your pains will be prolongated. ;)

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Whoever said anything about changing layouts? I've been using Colemak both at work and home cold turkey from the very time I started this thread.. Don't know.. maybe its me having poor hand-eye coordination or something, but I'm not getting it in easily. And this was supposed to be easier to learn.

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I dove into Dvorak just before you originally started this thread (just did a quick post-date check), and my accuracy with it is... well, not too bad when I'm not aiming for speed, but still quite sub-par when I try to type fast.  That's quickly changing though, as my accuracy seems to be starting to shoot up.  Like you, I also went cold-turkey early on.  But the one thing that really seems to help me is practicing with several typing tests a day on hi-games.net.

Just over four months now (minus a period of about three weeks with no keyboard, so no practice), and I am nearly at my original QWERTY speeds... but it will be a while before I match (or surpass) in both speed and accuracy.  IMO, using a new layout seems to be only part of the equation... the other part to improving is regularly (and actively) practicing, actually trying to get better.  If you expect to just magically get better over time, well, it will happen... but a little extra push can help in major ways.

In my experience... first comes the speed, then the accuracy... and with the added accuracy comes the ability to sustain even higher speeds for longer.  But again, I am kind of pushing myself a bit to hasten the process up a bit.  However, it seems that you are also trying to learn proper touch-typing technique at the same time; no doubt that adds a decent chunk of time to the learning process which I was able to bypass.  I'd say just keep going... you'll get there.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (11-Apr-2013 21:09:23)
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I think it has something to do with the way the normal keyboard is also off-centre to the left. While I used to use my own method to type using QWERTY, I never noticed it at all or if I did, didn't take it too much into consideration. Now of course, I do feel it and kinda find it uncomfortable at times.
To be honest, I think the rolling method of Colemak is a bit of a hinderance for me with my poor hand-eye coordination. Slow snail typing is probably the way I'm gonna be typing for the rest of my life using Colemak; as that at least gets me through a mail or even this post with ease and better accuracy. But even with this speed, I keep making stupid mistakes I shouldn't.. :(

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knightjp said:

I think it has something to do with the way the normal keyboard is also off-centre to the left. While I used to use my own method to type using QWERTY, I never noticed it at all or if I did, didn't take it too much into consideration. Now of course, I do feel it and kinda find it uncomfortable at times.

This part really bit me in the ass when I switched to Dvorak.  With QWERTY I got so used to typing, long ago that problem went away.  Only to resurface when I tried to learn Dvorak.  Now, I'm once again to the point where I can type (in Dvorak) without the bizarre key staggering really affecting me too much.  I went from over a decade of touch-typing QWERTY to touch-typing Dvorak and had problems... no doubt going from your own method of typing QWERTY to properly touch-typing Colemak probably increases the pain for this particular problem.

Unfortunately, it's been so long since I originally learned proper typing, I have no idea how long it was before I originally stopped having the problem.  But what I can tell you is it lasted quite a while.  I don't think I'd blame that on Colemak... it's the keyboard.  Stupid mechanical typewriter legacy that just refuses to die.  All I can say is, try to adjust the angle of your keyboard... mine has to be at a slight angle with the left side closer than the right for me to be able to type decently.  If it's just a bit off, errors galore--no matter what the layout and my skill with it.

Here's a bit of irony: Colemak actually gave me fewer problems here.  The reason?  It's always either the bottom-left/top-right keys or the top-left/bottom-right keys of the board that cause the problems, depending on angle.  With the entire bottom row virtually unchanged in Colemak, only the top can really be a problem... and the top, to me, always gives less trouble than the bottom.

knightjp said:

To be honest, I think the rolling method of Colemak is a bit of a hinderance for me with my poor hand-eye coordination. Slow snail typing is probably the way I'm gonna be typing for the rest of my life using Colemak; as that at least gets me through a mail or even this post with ease and better accuracy. But even with this speed, I keep making stupid mistakes I shouldn't.. :(

I make plenty of mistakes, but I backspace and correct them.  They do dissipate over time... don't let them bring you down.

Edit: Ah, after reading through the rest of this topic, I now understand what you meant by the keyboard being off-center.  I thought you were talking about the traditional staggered design, but it seems that you're talking about the entire keyboard being pushed to the left to make room for the mouse.  In that case... well, I deal with the same problem, but the best way to fix it is probably to get a "tenkeyless" model that completely lacks the numeric keypad.  I have yet to find a "fix" to this myself... I'm just putting up with it.  It would be nice if there were decent keyboards available with the numpad on the left side instead, or if standalone keypad didn't cost so much considering what a basic piece of hardware it really is...

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (12-Apr-2013 00:36:52)
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UltraZelda64 said:

Here's a bit of irony: Colemak actually gave me fewer problems here.  The reason?  It's always either the bottom-left/top-right keys or the top-left/bottom-right keys of the board that cause the problems, depending on angle.  With the entire bottom row virtually unchanged in Colemak, only the top can really be a problem... and the top, to me, always gives less trouble than the bottom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, You're switching from Colemak to Dvorak? From what I've read in all these forums, the opposite is the most common. Why switch?
I first learned to touchtype on Dvorak before coming to Colemak. Maybe thats it. But even then I never noticed the keyboard was off-centre.

UltraZelda64 said:

Edit: Ah, after reading through the rest of this topic, I now understand what you meant by the keyboard being off-center.  I thought you were talking about the traditional staggered design, but it seems that you're talking about the entire keyboard being pushed to the left to make room for the mouse.  In that case... well, I deal with the same problem, but the best way to fix it is probably to get a "tenkeyless" model that completely lacks the numeric keypad.  I have yet to find a "fix" to this myself... I'm just putting up with it.  It would be nice if there were decent keyboards available with the numpad on the left side instead, or if standalone keypad didn't cost so much considering what a basic piece of hardware it really is...

Pinkyache has a better alternative that doesn't require any hardware change - Left hand mousing...
If you're gonna be using Dvorak, I suggest that.. makes shortcuts easier and sets the keyboard right in front without the need for getting rid of the numpad.
I actually find the numpad quite useful. I like entering dates and long digits using it. So my keyboard needs to have that. I like it.
I find that my right wrist gets faces the most awkward position when the keyboard is facing straight right in front of me. So now to keep both wrists happy, I make the keyboard tilt slightly to the left to keep the both wrists as straight as they can be.
http://instagram.com/p/X_9N8JrAn8/
TBH left hand mousing is kind of the best idea, but pointless on Colemak. I use the standard keyboard shortcuts a lot and its one of the features I like about it.

Last edited by knightjp (12-Apr-2013 10:23:57)
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Actually I am using Dvorak and have been since about early December last year.  I am trying to reach my old speeds in Dvorak (almost done...), and then learn Colemak as a second layout (already have the basic layout in my mind, just slow and error-prone...).  I actually have no intentions of "switching"; just getting decent with both layouts.  As for left-handed mouse... I sometimes (rarely) switch temporarily when my right arm needs a break, but it never lasts.  I'm right-handed and it just "feels" wrong.

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I'm left handed.. so the left handed mousing would be easy for me. But I think I'll stick to Colemak for now. I think Dvorak is an awesome layout despite what the Colemak website has to say about its flaws.

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I agree.  IMO both layouts have their places, can't really go wrong with either one.  Both are light-years ahead of QWERTY.  The way I see it, Dvorak's "flaws" as listed on the Colemak site are really just part of Colemak's advertising campaign more than anything; they're not really anything major.  I have quite a bit of respect toward such a good layout that was created without the use of computers or any of the fancy algorithms and automatic simulations that are run on them today.  That had to have taken a hell of a lot of work and research, some serious dedication.  Dvorak was ahead of his time.

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I kinda feel the same way. But as Shai has stated time and again on various threads in this forum, the flaws were real complaints made by users; not things that he made up for advertising. I'm not completely in disagreement with him, just that those, like you say, are somethings that we have to live with; like the fact that we still have to type on the bottom row more on Colemak than with Dvorak.
When comparing the two, while most have great and awesome things to say about the merits of going from Dvorak to Colemak, I'm always drawn back to these two articles:
http://xahlee.blogspot.ae/2011/06/keybo … is-it.html
http://soukie.net/2010/06/06/of-keyboards-and-men-3/
Both make some interesting points and whenever I face the issue with rolling style of Colemak and the number of mistakes that I make with it, my frustration always lead takes me back to these and makes me wonder if I made the right choice. :P

Last edited by knightjp (12-Apr-2013 21:00:15)
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I know I made the right decision (between those two, at least) because the left-handed keyboard shortcuts are very important to me.  Hell, colemak even brought a bunch of shortcuts closer than qwerty.

However, I did find dvorak's alternating rhythm more comfortable than colemak's rolls (this might be a matter of taste).  I wish there was a layout that had both shortcuts and alternation. 

Sadly, that is not a challenge.  It turns out that availability still means quite a lot to me, and I probably wouldn't switch anyway.  Colemak comes default on linuxes, which is great, but more importantly it's relatively popular on android, which turns out to be essential to my learning strategy.

Last edited by lalop (13-Apr-2013 18:07:55)
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lalop said:

I know I made the right decision (between those two, at least) because the left-handed keyboard shortcuts are very important to me.  Hell, colemak even brought a bunch of shortcuts closer than qwerty.

However, I did find dvorak's alternating rhythm more comfortable than colemak's rolls (this might be a matter of taste).  I wish there was a layout that had both shortcuts and alternation. 

Sadly, that is not a challenge.  It turns out that availability still means quite a lot to me, and I probably wouldn't switch anyway.  Colemak comes default on linuxes, which is great, but more importantly it's relatively popular on android, which turns out to be essential to my learning strategy.

I wish Colemak came standard on Windows, but even with the latest version of 8 doesn't have it. It comes as standard on my mac at home. But at the office, we use MS software primarily and leaves me stuck. Especially when I have to alternate computers. For that Dvorak is better as its a recognised layout and comes standard on all.
The rolls are said to be more natural. I'm pretty sure that its just me and not the layout to blame for my failure. I always have tough time getting my fingers to work properly; even on QWERTY touch typing.

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lalop said:

However, I did find dvorak's alternating rhythm more comfortable than colemak's rolls (this might be a matter of taste).  I wish there was a layout that had both shortcuts and alternation.

Actually, the Capewell Dvorak layout, and a layout I've made which further improves on that layout, preserves the keyboard shortcuts of QWERTY while boasting of Dvorak's high alternation.

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Pseudo said:

Actually, the Capewell Dvorak layout, and a layout I've made which further improves on that layout, preserves the keyboard shortcuts of QWERTY while boasting of Dvorak's high alternation.

As I understand it, you made another layout? I thought the Workman layout proved that there was really no need for any improvement on Colemak. Guess I was wrong.

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Pseudo said:

Actually, the Capewell Dvorak layout, and a layout I've made which further improves on that layout, preserves the keyboard shortcuts of QWERTY while boasting of Dvorak's high alternation.

Can I see your new layout?  C-D actually misses a couple important shortcuts, like ctrl s, w, f.

knightjp said:

As I understand it, you made another layout? I thought the Workman layout proved that there was really no need for any improvement on Colemak. Guess I was wrong.

Workman "proves", if anything, that new layouts improving on colemak, dvorak etc can't seem to be made without also having some disadvantage over the original - thus we're already close to optimal.

That doesn't mean that no improvement is possible, only that you'd probably sacrifice something for it.

Last edited by lalop (13-Apr-2013 15:54:40)
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I'm sorry, It seems I misspoke, my layout does not preserve s,w, or f, or any shortcuts except for ZXCV.  Do you use MSKLC? I do, and so my shortcuts are by default in their QWERTY positions, regardless of how I position the letters on the keyboard. For example, I switched the C with the G key in the layout I am currently typing on, but when I use the command ctrl + G it acts like ctrl + C, conveniently preserving the copy command in its bottom-left position.

If you wish for a layout to preserve all of the shortcuts of QWERTY, you can achieve this through MSKLC by loading the pre-existing US International Layout, and then re-arranging the keys to your liking.

@Knight

Well, the Workman layout was an attempt at improvement on the Colemak layout. Colemak is very near optimal, you're right, and so improvements to it have only been made thus far with computer algorithms. Martin Krzywinski, the creator of Carpalx, made two improvements on the Colemak layout which you can find here. Having nowhere near the necessary computer expertise, I did not even go near Colemak. Dvorak, however, has much room for improvement. I had typed on Dvorak (with the I and U keys switched) for about a year before adopting the Capewell Dvorak layout which, while better overall, still had some problems. My layout represents an attempt to improve even further upon that layout by making a few tweaks of my own and throwing out the bad. I call it the Kayout and I'm thinking of making a thread about it in the near future.

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Heh, I doubt MS made a layout changer for linux.  I did find a hack that turns it into qwerty when you press ctrl, but I found it inelegant, especially since many shortcuts don't use ctrl. 

Pseudo said:

Martin Krzywinski, the creator of Carpalx, made two improvements on the Colemak layout which you can find here.

I'd say the big disadvantage to those is movement of shortcuts.  Still, it's an option if knight doesn't need them as much as I do.

Last edited by lalop (13-Apr-2013 18:15:14)
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