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Colemak or Dvorak... Hard to choose...

  • Started by knightjp
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IMO... there may be some need for improvement in terms of the distance travel, frequency of letters, etc., but Dvorak must have chosen those placements for the letters for a reason. I think there is more to the Dvorak layout than meets the eye.
I agree that for normal computing, the layout leaves much to be desired. But that's what happens in a world that is dominated by QWERTY.
Frankly if Dvorak's efforts were accepted, adopted & the layout was considered as the default or norm, we would not be having this discussion. I wonder if there would even be a Colemak to start of with. Maybe there would & maybe not.

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knightjp said:

IMO... there may be some need for improvement in terms of the distance travel, frequency of letters, etc., but Dvorak must have chosen those placements for the letters for a reason. I think there is more to the Dvorak layout than meets the eye.

Okay, this is bordering on magical thinking.

You have to remember that Dvorak didn't have computers or optimize for their use.  He couldn't run through entire books and compare their resulting metrics, except very slowly.  Similarly, he couldn't have known that keyboards would be much easier to press than typewriters.

Dvorak's layout, as it turns out, is still very good, but do not assume it is better for no reason.  Not only is the scenario different, but we also have more powerful ways to compare layouts.

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Lalop, in the case that you're using Linux, the next best thing I would suggest is that you use Autohotkey, which allows you to bind keys and key combinations. You could bind ctrl + i, or whatever key you want, to perform ctrl + c, z, etc., but have your keys function normally when actuated when pressed without holding ctrl.

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Pseudo said:

You could bind ctrl + i, or whatever key you want, to perform ctrl + c, z, etc.

AHK is not available either.  But perhaps I should have elaborated on why I find this inelegant: it requires remembering two sets of characters.  Sometimes this key is s, but when you press ctrl, that other key becomes s.  What about when you want to type ctrl+s s? 

The breaking straw, though, was the shortcuts that don't use ctrl.  In some cases, shortcuts are single-letter: say, s, which simply does not work. I did not like dealing with these various rules for things that were previously unified in my mind.  So I googled, and found that it was not necessary.

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What I was trying to say is that while we complain about the position of 'L', etc.. There must have been reasons that why Dvorak placed them in those positions.

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Well, there was no "ls -l" back when dvorak designed his layout :P

Edit: more serious answers

Last edited by lalop (14-Apr-2013 10:45:55)
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My Linux distribution comes pre-set with two bash aliases for the ls command (that I know of): "la" is equivalent to "ls -la" and "ll" is equivalent to "ls -l".  I don't necessarily like the idea of "cheating" because I'd rather use and remember the real command and switches, but it's already set up so it's hard to resist... heh.  But seriously, double-tapping L and hitting the Enter key is even easier and faster than typing the full command in QWERTY...

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (14-Apr-2013 18:01:49)
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Awesome!  Just made "vs" an alias of "cd", one of the more awkward commands in colemak.

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  • From: Viken, Norway
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So you can't run PortableApps software at work? My workplace has a strict IT policy but I can still run PKL here. :)

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Why don't you make ls a one letter alias. I currently have "d" set up to the show directory command and it is very pleasant, being easily able to browser around.

Last edited by vaskozl (15-Apr-2013 18:54:04)

Posted without the aid of a rodent.

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It looks like "l" is also an alias for "ls".  Good idea.

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@ultrazelda64 - What version of Linux are you using?

After using Colemak for so long, I'm not that good on Dvorak anymore. I tried it for about 30 mins the other day and it was a disaster. But then again its no different than me trying to type this sentence on Colemak right now. You have no idea how many times I'm having to correct my mistakes. Even when typing one letter at a time so slowly.

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Update: I bought myself one of those Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 keyboards. I know they're old, but according to reviews, they're quite in demand.
It helped release some of the tension that was being caused by having the keyboard off center. Now I can keep the keyboard straight again without having any kind of awkward wrist positions.
But it didn't help with getting faster on the Colemak layout. I still make so many mistakes. The R & S keep getting mixed up. As for typing my usual username is getting a bit of a pain too. P & G keep getting mixed up as well and my usage of the punctuation is also getting to me.
With my usual brain, hand eye coordination, I guess I need more practice than what a normal person would. :(

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New Dvorak user here. I am at 30wpm 100% acc. on Dvorak into my first week, so I am still learning. I've DL'd a colemak map as well as map image for possible practice on the side; I may convert after my trials with Dvorak. This will be the first place to know.

I'd have to say that the shortcut key complaints do not really bother me with Dvorak. W/V/Z/Q/M shortcuts are a simple pinching motion to execute. Plus I use different finger and thumb combos so it becomes a matter of versatility.

Not having to reach the bottom row as much in Dvorak is much too overlooked IMO. The bottom row puts the most strain on the fingers. And don't overlook the digraphs either they are quite pleasant. There are some very noticeable digraphs it Dvorak. "H" the most prominent digraph in english (besides the vowels) is very well executed in Dvorak with its ch, th, sh, wh, and gh combos. I think it all comes down to personal preference at this time though, in terms of choice, as we have yet to arrive at an optimal layout.

My only complaint of Colemak is that it doesn't exploit digraphs to their full potential, but neither does Dvorak for that matter. It is a very technical process- arriving at the optimal layout. Hopefully forums and layouts like Colemak bring more attention to this matter and hopefully instigate further investigations into optimization.

There are many more considerations outside of distance and alteration to investigate.

Last edited by L8FAN (25-Jun-2013 04:37:29)
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@L8FAN - So you're someone that switched from Colemak to Dvorak? Wow.. you're the 1st that I've heard of. Most won't think of switching. Finally someone who can give a clear picture of what Dvorak is to use coming from Colemak.
Let us know how it goes. :)

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My worst shortcut experience with Dvorak was hitting Ctrl+W when I meant Ctrl+V – thereby closing the window instead of copying what I'd written so I lost my post. That ticked me off every time. ;)

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Sounds to me that @L8FAN is flirting with Dvorak, and may later give Colemak a shot - though perhaps they've weighed up the pros and cons of each before embarking on one of them.

Can you give us a little more background - if you were already a touch typist - what inspired you to change, why have you picked Dvorak etc?

When I was new to Dvorak, I kept on closing windows instead of pasting.  A rather painful lesson that you soon learn to avoid.

Last edited by pinkyache (25-Jun-2013 09:27:27)

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L8FAN said:

Not having to reach the bottom row as much in Dvorak is much too overlooked IMO. The bottom row puts the most strain on the fingers.

Hmm..

Bottom row colemaks not in dvorak: c /? .< ,>
Bottom row dvoraks not in colemak: q j w ;:

Carplax: Both dvorak/colemak have 9% bottom-row use
Alice in wonderland ch1: 9.6%/10.5%


I guess it could make a moderate difference (a few % points), but doesn't seem like a gigantic change.  I think I do prefer punctuation symbols on the top row, as long as row-switching is not worsened.  However, putting them on the left side damages shortcut potential

L8FAN said:

My only complaint of Colemak is that it doesn't exploit digraphs to their full potential, but neither does Dvorak for that matter. It is a very technical process- arriving at the optimal layout.  Hopefully forums and layouts like Colemak bring more attention to this matter and hopefully instigate further investigations into optimization.

Conventional wisdom says we're already close to optimal, since the various optimized layouts (imak, dvorak, colemak, workman, norman, QGMLWB, etc?) tend to do better at certain things at the cost of others.  If you improve on digraphs, chances are something else would be made slightly worse, etc, so, as you say, you ought to just pick those optimizations which you personally prefer.

L8FAN said:

There are many more considerations outside of distance and alteration to investigate.

Aside from the obvious shortcuts, some very weird considerations have been analyzed here, including ease-of-learning (tarmak transitional layouts) wrist angles (angle/wide mod - Dreymar's sig), altgr-shortcut usability (via a wide mod) vs Dreymar's capslock-extend mappings...  The rabbit hole goes pretty deep.


:

Last edited by lalop (26-Jun-2013 04:33:58)
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I think that neither Dvorak nor Colemak do badly concerning bigrams! Not sure how L8FAN arrives at that conclusion. Both have been designed with the important bigrams in mind, but where Dvorak emphasizes hand alternations Colemak emphasizes hand rolls. These strategies both have merit and it may to some extent be a question of what works best for you.

The other optimized layouts Lalop mentions are also very much concerned with bigrams. Weightings of the various parameters vary which leads to different layouts, but both Dvorak and Colemak score consistently well in this respect ttbomk.

Same-finger bigrams are no fun, says DreymaR.

Last edited by DreymaR (25-Jun-2013 10:20:12)

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yuppy, puppy, act, burn, cough, lolz...

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pinkyache said:

yuppy, puppy, act, burn, cough, lolz...

And these words are difficult to type on Dvorak / Colemak or easier?

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Those are harder on dvorak.  Carplax has a list of hard words (though I'm not sure I'd agree with some).

nimbostratue said:

1- during the last 5 months I was analyzing text from famous books (http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/scores/top) using this tool http://www.codesharp.co.uk/dvorak/   and in every case the probability of having "e," is much higher than having any other key combined with "," and of course the probability of having "e." turned out to be much much less. So by placing "." under "e" this would decrease the same finger ratio.

https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?pid=8130#p8130

Wonder if this makes it worth swapping , and .

Last edited by lalop (25-Jun-2013 17:39:12)
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All I know is that the punctuation on Dvorak (, . :) is far better and easier than on Colemak or QWERTY. Its one of the best features of Dvorak IMO and some say that when analysing text, some of these sites don't take them into consideration. That should not be the case, considering that they are a big part of letter writing and blogging.
I'm sure Shai thought of keeping them in their QWERTY places for a specific reason other than moving the most fewer keys as possible.

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knightjp said:

:

Unless one-handed is required (less likely than with, e.g. shortcuts), I disagree.



L8Fan: if you want a consideration that hasn't really been considered before, consider the notion that our hands are most comfortable curved (e.g. qwerty AWEF JIO; positions) rather than in standard home-row.  It'd be interesting to have a layout for which those positions are home row (the top row would displace some numbers).

Last edited by lalop (25-Jun-2013 23:30:56)
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The words listed above (puppy et al,) involve same finger bigrams under Dvorak.  I'm not the biggest fan of the ps placement with Dvorak - though I think I might be able to change my fingering to make it more comfortable.   The other same finger bigrams - gh, ct, rn, ls don't feel that bad for me, it involves almost a drag downward of the finger for those.  Care seems to have been taken to avoid same finger around the middle column.  'Up' might be a little awkward on the left hand I'll grant you that, using the middle finger for p, might help there.  As for the punctuation, it's good for html!  I'm relieved that there aren't letters there, as I fear my left hand couldn't rise to the challenge.

Last edited by pinkyache (26-Jun-2013 00:49:15)

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