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Colemak or Dvorak... Hard to choose...

  • Started by knightjp
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Woohoo!

yp7HiVN.png

Actually, I think I figured out why colemak scores so badly.  Colemak's semicolon (used after every line!) happens to fall into the designated pinkie region.  After modifying the ring/pinkie regions to the (imo, more realistic, unless you really bend your pinkie to the left):

Hb0vSha.png

The new layout scores become:

3Xwyrpm.png

The fact that the other layouts didn't gain nearly as much from this change suggests that colemak's low score was mainly an artifact of the system.

The modified defaults can be found here.
"weirdness" AltGr layout here.

Last edited by lalop (05-Jul-2013 20:48:05)
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@ksm123: That's why I eschew java.  The fact that IDEs can predict so much of your code suggests that most of that code is redundant.

ksm123 said:

1. Some analysis show, that less than 50% commands issued to your editor are data insert commands.

An unintentional result of that analysis is that we can immediately get improvements on 20-25% of our entered keys just from a vim-like "normal mode" and putting some simple navigation keys (forward, next line, backward word) around the homerow.  This improvement would not be as marked for someone with extend mappings or good emacs macros (in those cases, it would be 2 buttons -> 1 button), but for someone who's still using arrow keys, it would be quite huge.

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Hello again. I am here to inform you all that I am officially on the fence for learning Colemak. I have been learning Dvorak and it has been going quite well, but two things are starting to get on my nerves. 1 Repetitive same finger strokes. I am thinking I will lean towards more finger alternation as opposed to hand alternation, so Colemak has Dvorak beat there. Secondly, my right hand is sore, lol. Like constantly. I use the mouse a lot, and left hand mousing is out of the question. This is probably due to computer games, one of my new passions. anything to ease the burden on my right hand will probably help this. It is my middle finger that is killing me the most, and its not pain but just soreness from so much use. Surprisingly my pinkies feel great. On a side note, what is really attracting me towards Colemak now is that it just feels more natural for me, even after getting up to ~45 on Dvorak. Just trying it out for 30 minutes, and I already have the layout memorized. Plus I think my brain types in handrolls, instead of the back and forth between left and right. Plus I feel like I'm always reaching more in Dvorak. The F key is killing me. My biggest typos are between O & E, and L & S. These are just my first thoughts. This may be redundant, but I think I'm going to keep learning Dvorak and learn Colemak on the side. As my Colemak speed increases I will truly be able to tell which one is a better fit- comparing them side by side. That's what I think this needs to come to. I honestly don't think I'm going to go back to Qwerty, ever again even for friends computers. I can easily change their settings back and forth i think, between dvorak. Qwerty's layout will always be ingrained in my brain, though so I may inadvertently end up learning three layouts in the next couple months. This might not end well.

P.S.
I really have too much time on my hands for this stuff, It's a little sad :( .. lol (sighh)

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@L8FAN, hang on, I like the idea of you comparing the two (three) layouts side by side as long as it doesn't break your brain!

However it's really difficult to evaluate a layout in such little time.  I doubt 30 minutes or even 2 weeks under a new layout, is enough, even though it might sound and feel like a lot.

F key killing you under Dvorak?  How about the B key under Colemak?  Each has it's own quirks.  I can't say that the F key has really bothered me ever with Dvorak, however it could be a weakness (hard to tell when you don't know any better.) 

You also seem to be quite opinionated about how great Colemak is, even though you've barely used it!

When you practice frequently (moreso when you are starting out), you can strain your fingers, which then makes it hard to identify whether it's layout related or just fatigue.  I think stretching is more tiresome on the fingers compared with floating, but you might find floating is more tiresome on the upper body!

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

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I'm being a little bit hasty. I don't know anything yet... It may or may not be the better choice for me- Colemak that is, Its hard to make the best decision for me, there are so many options... I'm just having a hard time picking between two. We'll see though. I do want to give Colemak a full run though. I don't want to have any regrets.

Last edited by L8FAN (09-Jul-2013 21:56:14)
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davkol said:

First, I don't bend my pinkie, I move whole hand forward.

That sounds more reasonable.  I think I still prefer my slight sideways movement to a slight upwards movement (which, correct me if I'm wrong, would require the entire arm to be moved forward), but I don't really know about the long-term ergonomic advantages of either.

davkol said:

Second, it explains why Colemak scored just fine, when I tried it with some code in Python and Scheme. Semicolons are redundant.

Lisps are also pretty guilty of not using whitespace to their advantage.  I predict that Lisps will finally take off when we get either:

  1. A standard whitespace syntax

  2. An editor that lets you edit the syntax tree directly

in both cases, because newcomers would no longer be scared off by the parentheses.

Parens themselves are badly positioned on any layout, including Programmer Dvorak.  If you type them often, you ought to map them to a modifier like AltGr.  If you don't, then KLA's just inaccurate in the scheme case.

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One only thing that keeps me on the Colemak is the shortcuts. I prefer Dvorak's positioning of the punctuation symbols. Much easier to use. But I cannot say that the punctuation is a big deal for me on Colemak. Even the position of the semicolon does not bother me that much. I think with the ergonomic keyboard, its not much of the stretch as on a standard one.
With L8fan's posts, I think I'm beginning to see the benefits of the Shai mentioned about Colemak when it compares to Dvorak. I still like the hand alteration over the finger rolling and I think that brings in better accuracy than the finger rolls, but the fact that I'm not completely lost when I face a QWERTY keyboard is a plus and the positioning of the W, F, L, is something that I feel is much better than it is on Dvorak; although their positions never bothered me on Dvorak.
So, while I'm a fan of the Colemak's shortcuts, the positioning of certain letters and the way it makes typing on QWERTY easy, I'm not a fan of the positioning of the symbols, finger rolls and the fact that it is not easily available on Windows. On Dvorak, I like the hand alteration, the positions of the symbols and the fact that it is easily available on any Operating System. I'm not a fan of the lack of easy of shortcuts, some of the positions of the letters.
I think that whatever layout you do choose, you're just gonna have to live with somethings.

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Ehhh, I was being hasty. I think I'll stay with Dvorak for now.. I'm already too invested in it. I was having a particularly painful day when I posted.

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L8FAN said:

Ehhh, I was being hasty. I think I'll stay with Dvorak for now.. I'm already too invested in it. I was having a particularly painful day when I posted.

If you are not facing any of the issues that I've mentioned above, then I think staying with Dvorak is the best bet for you. I say that I do get tempted to switch back to Dvorak every now and then, but I stay because, I've invested more time on Colemak than I did with Dvorak and learning it again would be a b***h.. Another thing is that I do like having the easy shortcuts and the placements of some of the letters.

Who knows.. maybe I will or maybe not. I'm still thinking that I since I've invested so much time in getting Colemak into my head so far, I might as well continue with it and stuff. I haven't gone completely with the Colemak touch typing thing lessons; although I feel that after I've mastered that, I will be a whole lot better with it. I should make effort and make more time for it, if I truly am serious about the switch and making it proper.

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Its been a year since I started using Colemak and I'm sorry to say that I have not made any progress with it. It's been a struggle to even write this. You have no idea how many corrections it takes to even type a single sentence. I don't know what is wrong with me or whether it is the layout that I just cannot get used to it.
I don't even dare to think about going back to Dvorak because that would be another nightmare to get used to. As it stands now, I'm just not seeing any progress with the Colemak layout at all.
I don't understand it. I know where all the letters are and it seems like my fingers do too, but just making a simple word is just so damn hard.
Hearing the success stories of those who made the switch in such short periods such as 1 month is so frustrating to hear.
Maybe I should record myself and show you guys just what I'm talking about.

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Hmmm... that's odd. What I did when I was frustrated with my lack of progress, was to write-read a not too assuming book on Amphetype. I just typed and read, enjoying the book and not thinking about the typing more than an absolute minimum. After I had done that, I found that my typing had gotten better flow and my speed went up as a result of that.

Then again, if every sentence gives you a really hard time you may not be able to enjoy such an experience. :(

Last edited by DreymaR (08-Jan-2014 10:19:26)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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Nope.. don't think that would be for me. I would not enjoy that at all.
I don't get it. I know where the letters are. Why aren't my fingers following suite?
Maybe I should drastically slow down to 'one letter per minute' and get my speed up as I get more confidence there. I don't know... Its just frustrating to think that I made more progress with Dvorak in one month than what I have made with this whole year with Colemak.

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Have you used Colemak full time? If not, your Colemak skills cannot grow fully. Be brave and jump off the layout cliff. Keeping two layouts will slow both of them and bring only confusion to your tired brain.

Focus on your accuracy, then your speed will steadily increase over time. I suppose 98% accuracy is a must

Last edited by Tony_VN (08-Jan-2014 10:50:13)
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Well Tony, I can honestly say that I have used the Colemak layout cold turkey for the whole time that I started this thread. I have not changed, even though I did think about it.
Both the computers at work and at home have the same layout.
I can say that the only reason that I have stayed with Colemak for so long is because of the keyboard shortcuts. With Dvorak, I do loose those and they do come in handy quite often. :P

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Thanks for your reply. How is your accuracy and speed then?

My switching experience was very tough too for the first three weeks. Then it gradually felt better each day.

Last edited by Tony_VN (08-Jan-2014 11:24:11)
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Speed ok.. I know where the letters are. That is the easy part. Getting myself to type accurately is of course a different matter. I cannot get a single word right even when typing slowly. I don't know why. Maybe my brain isn't built for Colemak. I'm really struggling here.

Last edited by knightjp (08-Jan-2014 11:33:58)
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I went through a similar phase - what worked for me was to set a strict accuracy limit for whatever typing exercise i was doing (be it amphetype, typeracer etc.) of 98%. I would completely forget about speed and just repeat each exercise until i exceeded 98% accuracy.

It was a bit brutal to start off with but definitely pulled me out of a rut eventually

I think typing is progressively more miserable as the accuracy drops off, regardless of your overall speed. Things feel good in the space from 98-100% accuracy - like your really flowing..

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Like bph said, I see that you are too much focused about speed. I suggest you should focus on accuracy instead, i.e, set the goal of 99% accuracy for a change. Type as slow as possible to reach this, then gradually increase the speed while keeping the accuracy.

Last edited by Tony_VN (08-Jan-2014 12:30:19)
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The whole time that I have been using Colemak, I have never used typeracer or any other typing program. The only thing that I have done is go through the typingweb.com
Maybe that is it. I need to get myself some actual typing lessons in Colemak.

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10fastfingers is a good one, check out the practice mode section to work your way through the top 1000 words

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Yeah, I've been playing with Colemak to help learning it. Typing of the Dead (new version out on Steam!), TypingMaster, Amphetype, FastTyper etc etc.

Last edited by DreymaR (09-Jan-2014 09:32:26)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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I cannot figure my brain out. As long as I look away from my screen while typing something, I'm able to get type what my brain is thinking at the time without making a single mistake. 
How do I know this?
There is this girl in the office that I really like. I was typing a letter or something and I looked up as she walked by my desk; while still typing what was in my head at the time. I looked at the screen after that and I noticed that all the words were 100% accurate.
I did some other tests, looking away from the screen. As long as I don't look at the screen, I can type a sentence properly with 99% accuracy. Marginal mistakes, yes, but much, much better than before.

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Girls have the power of reducing blood from our male brains, putting it into somewhere (you may figure it out), so when girls are around, you lose some of your productivity.

Colemak or girls, you have to decide.

Last edited by Tony_VN (09-Jan-2014 12:35:45)
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Nonsense. The dexterity I've acquired from my keyboarding hobby has benefited girls on several occasions so I think the combination is workable. The lack of cerebral blood flow in these situations must be offset by motor memory so training is impoartant. Unfortunately, there's a lot of same-finger stress going on – girls aren't ergonomic!

On a more serious note, the fact that knight doesn't have problems when looking elsewhere (and at a girl, no less!) suggests that his problem may be a mental hangup. You can "learn" to be tense and make mistakes, in which case you need to "unlearn" these bad habits.

Last edited by DreymaR (09-Jan-2014 13:12:44)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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LOL... I think you guys are missing the point. When I'm not looking at the screen and just looking somewhere else, that is when I'm able to type at least to a level that I used to when I was using QWERTY. But when I do look at the screen and try to touch type, I make all these mistakes. What the hell is wrong with me?

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