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    Colemak en Español - Colemak in spanish - Open discussion - Discusión

    • Started by javix
    • 20 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 24-Dec-2012
    • Posts: 20

    -- English version below --

    Hola a todos,

    he descubierto recientemente Colemak y todo este fascinante mundo y estoy muy sorprendido de la poca repercusión que parece que ha tenido en el mundo hispano.
    He encontrado algunos blogs que lo mencionan y tal, y está la página de la wikipedia en español, pero en general me parece poco. Los hispanos buscamos en español. Los que tenemos la suerte de hablar otros idiomas podemos enterarnos de esto, pero en general está bastante cerrado al mundo hispano. Creo que falta material en español.
    En inglés, es evidente que Colemak comienza a ser una alternativa realmente a considerar, y por lo que veo tras la inclusión en OSX, todas las distribuciones linux, etc lo traen de serie. Será cuestión de poco tiempo tras Apple que Microsoft lo incorpore, si aumenta la difusión.
    Pienso que hace falta una comunidad hispana que lo respalde, así como información oficial del tema en español.

    Para español, tal y como es el diseño Colemak, veo dos cosas:
    1 - Si bien se pueden poner todos los símbolos sin más, es evidente que para escribir rápido en español hacen falta la teclas directas de la tilde (acento dead_acute), ñ/Ñ y diéresis (y ç y `para el catalán).
    2 - Los símbolos. Los símbolos en el teclado Colemak son directamente o casi los del diseño americano. Los ingleses han hecho por esto su versión y está aceptada.

    Pienso que haría falta tener un layout (diseño de teclado) es con variante Colemak con
    a) las letras españolas incluidas directas
    b) los símbolos más o menos como en el diseño español
    He encontrado en el foro y en general los siguientes intentos
    * https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1458 - DreymaR  ha hecho un gran estudio de teclados locales, también manteniendo los símbolos. Quizás sería un buen punto de partida
    * https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1446 - Martín Botero proporciona una variante para OSX

    Mis razones para pedir esto son las siguientes:
    es más o menos "fácil" (con su debido trabajo) reaprender las letras con diversos programas de mecanografía (ktouch, etc), pero los símbolos es un verdadero esfuerzo mental (o al menos me lo parece a mí) cuando estás en la fase de aprender un nuevo teclado (¿dónde estaba la t?) y de pronto no tienes ni idea de dónde estaba tal símbolo y además tienes cortocircuitos mentales, como es el caso de Shift+9 ")" escrito en el teclado y resultado "(".
    Este problema los angloparlantes no lo tienen, y me parece una dificultad añadida al hecho de reaprenderse un teclado. Y bastante disuasorio, en mi opinión, si además tratamos de fomentar el uso y hablar de Colemak a otras personas, especialmente aquellas que si bien escriben todos los días, no sean tan "frikis" o "procomputadoras" como para además, reaprenderse los símbolos. Y más si vamos más allá y planteamos llevar algo así a los colegios, por ejemplo. Así no "vendemos" esto seguro.

    Leyendo el foro he encontrado ciertas reticencias al hecho de hacer variantes locales, y en realidad no lo entiendo. Si ya existen en qwerty infinitas variantes, ¿cuál es el problema de que haya un "es" variante Colemak? Los ingleses han hecho el suyo y nadie ha protestado. En linux al menos que yo sepa está incluido.

    Si salvamos este aparente escollo, creo que la comunidad hispana deberíamos organizarnos un poco para que el día de mañana podamos instalar un pc (con el sistema operativo que sea) y podamos escoger colemak directamente como hacen los angloparlantes.

    Entonces:
    Propongo
    a) la creación de una sección de la página de colemak en español con la traducción de casi todo el contenido o si no (y si nos dan permiso) montar una web similar en español completa, quizá también con su sección de foro.
    b) la definición colaborativa de
    * un diseño de teclado español completo (completo quiero decir incluyendo acentos, ñ, ç, etc) para España con los símbolos más o menos igual
    * un diseño para latinoamérica (si quieren, creo que la colocación de los símbolos en el latinoamericano es muy similar al americano, pero igualmente les interesará la web en español y el diseño con la ñ, para no tener que hacérselo ellos a partir del americano)

    La discusión la planteo para que no sea una cierta dictadura la disposición de las teclas españolas. Parece que hay cierto acuerdo tácito por ejemplo con la colocación de la ñ en el lugar de los ;:, (meñique derecho arriba), pero igual hay otras posibilidades. El acento é parece que hay que ponerlo donde está en el teclado español, pero tiene el problema de acentuar ó, que o bien desplazas la mano y usas meñique - anular o si no toca repetir con el meñique, cosa que muy rápida no es. Yo personalmente he probado a poner la tilde donde está <> y el problema se traslada a la á. ¿ideas?
    Supongo que como dice Shai, no será óptimo para español pero sí mucho mejor que qwerty. Es por eso y por la repercusión que ya tiene colemak en el mundo anglosajón que propongo adaptarnos al nuevo estándar y no irnos por la tangente (como los alemanes con neo2 http://www.neo-layout.org/).

    Yo aprovecharía para replantear la colocación de algunos símbolos, por la incomodidad actual del diseño qwerty español, y hacerlos más cómodos para los programadores. Conozco bastante gente que usa el teclado español para escribir emails y el americano para programar.
    Por ejemplo, \|,;,/, etc. Algunos se puede aprovechar la tecla, por ejemplo ºª\ y poner de principal \ y las otras con modificadores, etc.
    Ya puestos se podría hacer una variante "de serie" española con los símbolos idénticos donde están en Qwerty es (para ayudar a convencer a los no informáticos) y otra (que no hace falta que venga de serie, porque es para otro público) para programadores y geeks en general.

    Yo me ofrezco a hacer parte de las traducciones de la web si nos dan permiso para hacer la versión hispana dentro de colemak.com (que creo que sería lo suyo, para que parezca oficial) y si no, ofrezco comprar el dominio y montar una web con wiki y con esquema similar. Me he tomado la licencia de coger el dominio .es y en el caso de que se use la versión oficial se redireccionaría de alguna manera. Lo he cogido para evitar chantajes tras hacer la propuesta en este foro. No sería la primera vez que me hacen hijacking de dominios. Si alguien se ofende por violación de derechos dentro de un año lo libero y santas pascuas.

    Además, podría preparar los ficheros de configuración para linux de estas variantes, invocables simplemente con

    setxkbmap es(colemak)

    o

    setxkbmap es(colemak_programador)

    que es como lo tengo yo ahora mismo

    Creo sinceramente que si la comunidad hispana se anima, podríamos ver teclados en colemak en los centros comerciales algún día (es el 2º idioma más hablado del mundo después del chino, ¿no? Algún interés comercial aparecería...)

    Muchas gracias por vuestra atención, espero haber despertado vuestro interés. Se agradecerán todas las ideas, ayudas, colaboraciones....
    Traduzco todo el mensaje para ver qué opinan los papás de colemak de todo esto y si nos autorizan, y ver si quieren colaborar.

    Saludos,

    Javix

    ======== english version ======

    Hi Everybody,

    I have discovered recently Colemak and its fascinating world and I am quite surprised about the small repercusion it has had in the spanish speaking world.
    I have indeed found a couple of blogs that talk about it, and there is the wikipedia entry in spanish, but generally speaking, it is very low.
    We spanish speaking people tend to search in spanish. Those that are fortunate enough to speak other languages can discover and read about colemak, but we can say that currently colemak is quite closed to the spanish world.
    I think there should be more stuff in spanish.

    In english, it is obvious that it is slowly becoming another serious alternative to qwerty, as seen on the recent inclusion on OSX, all major linux distributioins, etc.
    It may be just a question of time to have it included in Windows, if spreading continues.
    I think there needs to be a spanish community supporting colemak, and oficial information about colemak in spanish.

    Colemak in spanish has two issues that I can see:
    1 - It is true that all specific spanish symbols  (ñ, dead_acute, dieresis, ç) can be typed using AlgGr, but it is also obvious that in order to touch type in spanish we need direct keys
    2 - Symbols. Symbols on colemak layout are directly the same as in the us-layout. There exists an official UK variant (at least in linux).

    IMHO I think that we need a colemak spanish layout with:
    a) direct spanish letters and accents
    b) symbols located as in the qwerty spanish layout.
    In the forum I was able to find a couple of spanish variants
    * https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1458 - DreymaR has done a deep research on locales, also with "keep symbols". We should maybe start here.
    * https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1446 - Martín Botero provides a OSX variant

    My reasons for this are the following:
    it is more or less easy (with its due work and practice) re-learn the letters on colemak with all the different available softwares (ktouch, etc), but symbols are different. They suppose an extra mental exercise english speaking people don't have to do. When you are already struggling trying to learn a new layout and trying to remember where was letter "t", then you have to remember where was ";", or my personal brain-shortcircuit, pressing shift+9 with ")" printed on the key, getting "(" as a result...
    I find this an extra difficulty in the spreading on any new layout, and specifically colemak, for the spanish speaking people. And pretty demotivating, IMHO.
    Even, if we are thinking on "spreading the colemak word" and want to try to convince other people, not necessarily computer related, this is an insuperable obstacle.
    And if we strive to something bigger, such as trying to take colemak to schools, this is a must have.

    Reading through the forum I have found that there are quite some reticences to develope local oficial variants (except for DreymaR's work) and I have to confess I don't understand why. There are uncountable qwerty locale variants, what is wrong in having an ES variant colemak version? British people have made their variant and that's ok, at least in linux it is included, so we can say it is oficial.

    If we can manage to solve this apparent obstacle, I think that the spanish community should organize ourselves a little bit better in order to have a wider broadcasting of colemak and to be able to some day install a pc with whatever OS and be able to choose colemak spanish variant just like the english-speaking people.

    So, I propose:
    a) to create a full spanish section in the colemak.com website, with most content translated to spanish - if we get allowed to, and if not, to build a spanish website with analogue structure and contents, even with its spanish forum.
    b) to define collaboratively
    * a full spanish colemak variant  (including direct keys for accents, ñ, ç, etc) para Spain with qwerty_es symbols layout
    * a full latinamerican spanish colemak variant (if they want their own; I think most symbols are similar to us layout, but maybe they want to profit from the spanish website)

    I formulate this as an open discussion in order to avoid some impossition on the layout. There seems to be some consensus about where to place the ñ key (instead of ;:) and also for the accent key (same place as on qwerty_es) but maybe there are other possibilities. E.g. problem with this accent key is fro typing é; you have either to move the hand and use pinky-ring finger or repeat pinky. The latter is not very fast.
    I have also tried to put the accent where we have <>, and the problem changes to á ¿any other ideas?

    I guess that as Shai says, colemak will not be optimal for spanish, but definitely way better than qwerty. That is the reason why I propose to adapt colemak (hopingly the new standard alternative worldwide) and not going a totally own and differnet way (such as germans with neo2 http://www.neo-layout.org/).

    I would take the opportunity to create another variant for programming, with slight changes to some symbols. Qwerty_es variant is terrible for that. I know some programmers that change to us layout for programming and back to es for writing emails, etc.
    For example, direct keys for /, \, ;, etc. Some symbols printed on the keyboard can be reused, such as the ºª\, where we could put \ as principal, and the others as combinations, etc.

    I offer to do at least part of the translations into spanish if we are allowed to create the spanish version within colemak.com (I think this would be best).
    If not, I offer to build the spanish website. I have registered the .es domain in order to avoid possible domain hijacking after publishing this post. It wouldn't be the first time that happens to me. If somebody has any problem with it, I won't use it and after a year release it.

    I could also provide the files for having a linux es colemak variant. They could be invoked with

    setxkbmap es(colemak)

    o

    setxkbmap es(colemak_programador)

    This is how I have it in my setup currently

    I sincerely believe that if the spanish community supports colemak we could dream with the possibility of buying colemak variant keyboards on mainstream shops some day (spanish is the 2nd most spoken language after chinese, right? We have to create the comercial interest in that market...

    Thanks a lot for the attention, I hope to have sparked a little interest. Any ideas and collaborations will be thanked.

    Shai, DreymaR, what do you think?

    Kind Regards,

    Javix

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    • From: Oslo, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    Hola! Nice initiative there. Did you by the way see my work on comparative language stats for Colemak? Feel free to run that for Spanish/English if you wish. Basically, yes - Colemak should be decent for Spanish based on monogram analysis at least.

    I did provide Spanish and LatAm variants with symbols where you're used to? Did you want more? The letter block AltGr mappings, maybe?

    Actually the çÇ are quite rarely used and don't deserve a direct key. In my suggestion they're very easy to hit (I think!) on AltGr+k.

    In my Unified approach I provided a direct key for ñÑ and direct accent keys for the rest. That should be good I hope?

    Last edited by DreymaR (30-Dec-2012 08:48:48)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Hi DreymaR,

    thank you for your reply. I am glad you like the iniciative, I hope it materializes into something useful...

    I did provide Spanish and LatAm variants with symbols where you're used to? Did you want more? The letter block AltGr mappings, maybe?

    cmk_ed_ks is perfect, I just miss the € under "e" and backspace in the caps lock (I find it a very good thing in colemak), I would just put Caps_lock in e.g. the scroll_lock key, which I never use.

    About the angle mod: I think it is a great idea, just have not been able to test it yet (setxkbmap -model pc105awide-sl doesn't seem to do anything. Maybe I have to recreate a map myself?), with it you solve the accent problem I commented in my first post, as it is on the index finger instead of the pinky (no finger repetition that way). Problem with that is I see it only for computer-related people. If symbols mislabeled are already a problem, the middle column can be very discouraging. As soon as I manage to apply it I'll tell you my own experience with it.

    Actually the çÇ are quite rarely used and don't deserve a direct key. In my suggestion they're very easy to hit (I think!) on AltGr+k.

    I am afraid not. I have used it once or twice in my whole life myself (it is not used in spanish), but for the catalan people is a very common letter, apparently it is much more used than ñ. But with your ks (keep local symbols) approach this is solved.

    In my Unified approach I provided a direct key for ñÑ and direct accent keys for the rest. That should be good I hope?

    I am sorry to say that this approach is very confusing. You keep ñ and both accents (actually only dead_acute is needed for spanish as direct key) but the numbers row is terrible (shif+9). As you say in your locale post, I would like to discuss it a little more and relocate a couple of symbols in order to make it more practical for an "only spanish" programmer version. And for example remove "`" as direct key, as it is not needed (can be generated with combination with AltGr).
    I will bring a proposal here soon.

    About the latAm, I cannot evaluate it, somebody from Latinamerica, please?
    ¿alguno ha probado el mapa de teclado de latam de DreymaR? ¿opiniones?

    So, keep local symbols es version is already solved, thanks for that. Is it easy for you to make a drawing? I have not been able to find it in your post (without the angle mod).

    How do you do the thing with the patch?
    What do you think about the idea of a spanish website?

    Thanks, regards.

    Last edited by javix (30-Dec-2012 20:41:38)
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    I have € on the 5 key, as is quite common, so I didn't duplicate it on E (which I needed for the arrow symbols).

    CapsLock isn't Colemak to me, just a good idea that came together with Colemak. So for instance in Ubuntu you can find the CapsLock settings separately and choose 'CapsLock key behavior' as you like including Backspace; or, like me you could set it as the lv5 chooser key and use the Extend mapping layer to enhance navigation and editing! (Including Backspace of course.)

    To use the angle/wide mod I've usually edited the /etc/default/keyboard file. In XUbuntu there's a settings GUI you can use. If you've patched or replaced correctly that should work - but you may have to rebuild the xkb settings first. The patch installer I made should take care of that (removing some temp files before rebooting). Did you use the shell script (sudo instdiff.sh)? The reason my images are made with the Wide mod on them, is that it's much work to change back and forth for me. But for you I could make a set of my nice vector graphics showing the Spanish layouts, if you need it.

    I like to change the key caps physically when using the Wide mod. I can type on unchanged keyboards too but I prefer to move the caps. I often move them to a wide QWERTY and let guests on the machine use that; they don't complain much about the Wide mod.

    Yes, I do like the 'us' layouts better using the Wide mod. As you say, all the changed keys will then be in the middle under the agile index fingers.

    The reason both accents are moved is that the standard keyboard has those accents, as I remember it. There's not much else to put there I feel. Sorry about not making a Catalan version (I didn't know about it), but obviously it's going to be hard for me to make every single locale in the world so I had to be a little bit choosy. Actually, if you look in my symbols file (particularly the 'colemak' one) it shouldn't be hard to edit in a better solution for the Catalan there. For everyone else, I think that AltGr+k actually is really easy to hit. Especially with the Wide mod!

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    I have € on the 5 key, as is quite common, so I didn't duplicate it on E (which I needed for the arrow symbols).

    Sorry, I was trying to say on the "f" key in colemak, "e" physical key (keep the symbols).

    CapsLock isn't Colemak to me, just a good idea that came together with Colemak. So for instance in Ubuntu you can find the CapsLock settings separately and choose 'CapsLock key behavior' as you like including Backspace; or, like me you could set it as the lv5 chooser key and use the Extend mapping layer to enhance navigation and editing! (Including Backspace of course.)

    Where can I find information about "lv5 chooser key and use the Extend mapping layer"? I am not sure I fully understand.

    To use the angle/wide mod I've usually edited the /etc/default/keyboard file. In XUbuntu there's a settings GUI you can use. If you've patched or replaced correctly that should work - but you may have to rebuild the xkb settings first. The patch installer I made should take care of that (removing some temp files before rebooting).

    I have been able to use the wide mod copying this:
    https://github.com/sotte/colemak_wide_xkb
    I don't understand why you need to edit the etc/default/keyboard file. My kubuntu does not have it. I have tried editing console-setup, but same result (none). Maybe I haven't fully understood that either.
    I will try the wide mod and copy your layout to it.
    Anyway, you can drop the grave accent from the latam/unified/global spanish. That accent is only for catalan.

    The patch installer I made should take care of that (removing some temp files before rebooting). Did you use the shell script (sudo instdiff.sh)?

    Yes.

    But for you I could make a set of my nice vector graphics showing the Spanish layouts, if you need it.

    Thanks for the offer. Let's wait to see if there is some interest on the spanish website at all, before you do all that work. In the mean time, using this page, you can create very easily your own layout:
    http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/
    I will post some of my own asap.

    Thanks, regards

    Last edited by javix (14-Jan-2013 22:57:26)
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    Okay, here's what: Stephan Otte has made a layout that includes Colemak, some coder-friendly AltGr mappings and the Wide mod in one layout choice (in the symbols file). What I've done is to provide a more module-based approach: The Wide mod is defined not as a layout but as a keyboard model. This means you can type Wide with ANY of the installed layouts, such as QWERTY or Dvorak or whatever.

    But you'll need to install my files properly first. Did you manage to patch your XKB files with my patch? No strange error messages while patching?

    As the XUbuntu uses a GUI dialog, so KUbuntu may do the same. In that case you should find the Wide mod as a keyboard model when it's installed (and you've rebooted). If not, there's some other settings file you need to find...

    Even if the grave isn't necessary for others than Catalan typists, I see no need to drop it. What else should be there instead? On my Norwegian keyboard there's both acute, grave, cirkumflex and umlaut although they're rarely in use. Some users will need them some of the time.

    € on the F key won't be something I'll provide by default. It's easy to edit your x11/xkb/symbols/colemak file yourself to get what you want.

    Last edited by DreymaR (31-Dec-2012 20:32:54)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Hola Javix, yo en lo personal no encuentro útil tener una tecla especial para poner la 'ñ' ya que no es una letra que se encuentre con mucha frecuencia en el español, es mas común encontrar letras con las tildes y obviamente no se puede tener una tecla para cada letra con tilde, yo nunca me sentí cómodo trabajando con un teclado en español, es todo un parto para un programador encontrar teclas como el '@', supongo que para cuando definieron la diagramación del teclado en español el correo electrónico no existía y asumieron que esa tecla sobraba, se podría decir que después de mucho tiempo ya le pongo tildes a las letras, pero eso sucedió precisamente cuando me pase a colemak que las empecé a poner porque el layout tiene otro nivel con el Alt-Gr que me permitía hacer eso de una manera mucho mas fácil y me permitía seguir utilizando el layout en ingles que es el layout que me interesa, pues uno programa en ingles y no en español, finalmente con la experiencia adquirida construí mi propio teclado, conocido como el key64, es un teclado ergonómico, layout neutral pero que por defecto trabaja en colemak, ya llevo 2 meses aproximadamente con el invento y sigo gozandomelo, no lo he terminado aun, todavía me falta diseñar una caja bonita, así que si sabe de alguien que quiera colaborar con el proyecto su ayuda es bienvenida, por ahora no es mi prioridad para ser sincero, visita la pagina en ingles, la versión en español esta desactualizada.

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    Hola otra vez, -- english version below the ======= row ---

    después de más de un año de darle vueltas, no desisto de intentar tener un teclado colemak en español, con intención de que sea aceptado por los usuarios no-geeks.

    Me gustaría someterlo a discusión y que me dijérais qué os parece.

    Para que tenga aceptación, los símbolos han de seguir igual. Así que propongo varios teclados distintos, con los símbolos en el mismo sitio: uno  estándar, uno "raro" para poder escribir más rápido y uno variando la disposición de teclas de colemak.
    El problema viene del hecho de que en qwerty tanto la tecla de tilde (dead_acute) como la ñ están en el meñique y cualquier vocal siguiente está garantizada la alternancia, mientras que en el colemak la o sufre en ambos casos.

    Estándar

    el estándar simple sería el mismo que ha desarrollado @DreymaR (Colemak[eD]) manteniendo los símbolos locales (keep local symbols), con una modificación:

    • añadir el símbolo de euro en la tecla f (antigua tecla e) como altgr+f o en la e (si se mueven las teclas quedaría en la e) (en el diseño actual no tiene euro)

    Español
    Peros:

    • Repetición del mismo dedo (meñique) para la ó y ño.

    Para escritura rápida - wide mod

    Sería moviendo la tecla del acento al medio, para utilizar el índice de cualquier mano y poder acentuar de forma rápida cualquier vocal. En el teclado "normal", escribir "ó" conlleva repetición del meñique o desplazamiento.
    Para esto, se desplaza la fila inferior hacia la izquierda, quedando una especie de wide angle mod

    Español para escritura rápida
    Peros:

    • Es muy raro y es difícil acostumbrarse, y menos alternar entre qwerty y colemak

    Alternativa candidata

    Como todo esto es muy "raro", es poco probable que tenga aceptación generalizada (estoy hablando ya con algunos profesores de colegios que están interesados), así que hago la siguiente propuesta para tener un teclado colemak español, no raro, con keep-local-symbols y sin perder la alternancia para los acentos (y la ñ): simplemente permutar la posición de la "n" y la "o".
    Colemak ES n-o
    Peros:

    • yo no le veo ninguno, seguramente perderemos algo de las mejoras que supone el colemak, pero me parece un buen compromiso

    En ese caso, propongo quien sea programador, use una versión de colemak US con n-o cambiadas:
    ColemakUS con n-o cambiadas
    Peros:

    • que no está disponible según instales cualquier linux o en OS X, por ejemplo, etc, probablemente necesite un patch o hacérselo uno mismo. Se pueden dejar hechos pero sería raro conseguir que se difundiera (ya veremos si se consigue que el otro se difunda).

    ¿opiniones?

    Muchas gracias, un saludo!

    NOTA: he usado http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com para los layouts

    ======================================================

    Hi there,

    after more than a year of thinking about this, I do not give up managing to have an "official" colemak spanish layout, that would be accepted by non-geek users (majority of people).

    I would like to ask for opinions and discussion.

    The main idea to be able to get accepted is that the symbols have to remain the same; this is pretty obvious.
    So I propose several layouts, all with the keep-local-symbols philosophy: standard, "weird" - angle mod, and a colemak variation.
    The problem accepting the standard directly is that in spanish qwerty both keys ñ and dead_acute use the pinky and there is guaranteed finger alternation. In colemak keep-local-symbols you would have pinky repetition for "ó" and "ño".

    Standard - keep-local-symbols

    This would be the same that @DreymaR has developed, with a slight modification

    • Eurosign € on Altgr+f (antigua tecla e) - this follows the keep local symbols (it is normally on key e on qwerty) and current locale es layout does not have € sign

    Español
    Probblems:

    • Pinky repetition for "ó" and "ño".

    Fast typing with angle mod

    Here I would propose to move the dead_acute key to the middle of the bottom row, so it gets pressed with the index finger of any hand so finger alternation is guaranteed. This involves shifting z,x,c,v,b to the left, as in an angle mod.

    Español para escritura rápida
    Peros:

    • It is kind of weird for non-geeks and is difficult to get used to it. Alternation between colemak and qwerty is almost impossible

    Alternative layout

    As it is now it will not be accepted generally (I am already talking to some school teachers that are interested), so this is my proposal: simply swap the "o" and "n" letters.

    Colemak ES n-o
    Problems:

    • In a first view, I do not see any. Probably it will not be as optimized as colemak, but it looks like an acceptable compromise.

    If somebody is a programmer, probably will go with colemak-US, but if he is interested in switching to spanish layouts, this can be hell. So I propose Colemak-US with n-o swapped.
    ColemakUS with n-o swapped

    Peros:

    • Not directly available, would need a patch

    What do you think? What problems do you see?
    Thanks a lot for your help, kind regards

    NOTE:  I used http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com for generating the layouts

    Last edited by javix (05-Sep-2014 20:13:53)
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    Hola. Yo vivo en un país donde se habla español, y uso colemak. Me resulta muy cómodo poder tipear la 'ñ' así como también las tildes: á é í, mediante la combinación AltGr más la n, a, e o i. Incluso me parece más rápido y cómodo que el tener una tecla exclusiva para generar el tilde.
    Creo que no hace falta modificar la distribución para español. Como está funciona muy bien.

    La única letra que no se usa mucho en español en contraste con el inglés es la 'h'.


    ENGLISH:
    I write often in spanish and I find that the colemak layout is great for that language. The few special symbols are very easy to produce (ñáéí).

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    Hola,

    (he editado las imágenes, las de dropbox no salían)

    Gracias @wjames por responder.

    Una pregunta: ¿a qué velocidad escribes (en palabras o caraceteres por minuto)? Yo el problema que me encuentro al escribir rápido es que me resulta muy complicado poner "ñ" sin que la letra siguiente (será vocal) salga acentuada (ñá, ñó, etc) o la siguiente a un acento sin modificar. Técnicamente es muchísimo más rápido la alternancia que la composición.
    Y eso me frena bastante. ¿quizás sólo me pasa a mí?

    ====
    ENGLISH:

    I just edited my previous post, the dropbox images were not working.

    Thanks, @wjames, what is your typing speed? I find very difficult to compose a ñ without composing accidentally the following vowel.
    I find alternation way faster than composition, because of that reason.
    This makes me slower. Am I the only one?

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    • From: Oslo, Norway
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    Hola again!

    I would still choose to add € to AltGr+5 as is very common in other layouts. If you take the Colemak AltGr+F position away from the Colemak[eD] letter block you'll break the ability to type proper quotes ( ‚‘’ „“” ) which can be handy.

    The Angle mod should be made available for QWERTY as well. That's why I made these mods keyboard models so they'll go with every layout in Linux. On my laptop I move the key caps so guests can type AngleWide by looking – or turn off the mappings and blind-type without the mod if they prefer that.

    An alternative such as switching N and O from Colemak is usually confusing. Certainly to others, but whenever I've tried such small variants even I've ended up feeling confused. I wouldn't recommend such an option unless it's really necessary.

    Last edited by DreymaR (08-Sep-2014 08:51:38)

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    Hi DreymaR,

    thank you for answering.
    It looks that my quest to find an "acceptable by non-geeks" spanish layout leads to a dead end... :-(

    I would still choose to add € to AltGr+5 as is very common in other layouts. If you take the Colemak AltGr+F position away from the Colemak[eD] letter block you'll break the ability to type proper quotes ( ‚‘’ „“” ) which can be handy.

    but that would somehow "break" the keep-local-symbols philosophy (you would have a labeled key with no symbol there) and those quotes  ( ‚‘’ „“” ) are not used in spanish anyway. People would have to guess where the € is.

    An alternative such as switching N and O from Colemak is usually confusing. Certainly to others, but whenever I've tried such small variants even I've ended up feeling confused. I wouldn't recommend such an option unless it's really necessary.

    I know, but I do not see any other way of avoiding pinky repetition and thus making colemak "worse" in some way than qwerty.
    How would you recommend solving that?

    Did you have any success in trying getting your locale variations accepted in X.Org?
    What would it take to get your spanish variant accepted there?
    Maybe if there is just standard colemak keep-local-symbols out of the box it would help just getting started.

    Thanks again.
    Regards.

    Last edited by javix (08-Sep-2014 20:00:03)
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    No dead ends in sight, just potential!

    Norwegian is supposed to be using the ‹› «» quotes as well, but nowadays it's mostly done in books. However, keep in mind that we're typing in English too! So those quote symbols may still be handy.

    I didn't feel that it would take guesswork to use the AltGr+5 combo for €, but I now see that it isn't as universal as I had thought. On UK layouts they have AltGr+4, and others use E or even U to release the symbol. Ugh. In my full Colemak[eD] you can always use the currency dead key (AltGr+4 then 'e') but that's not feasible for Keep-Local-Symbols layouts. Ugh, it's a bit of a pickle then.

    I did check out the xkb files. The 'Winkeys' layouts for most locales have a € sign on the 5 key so it is quite universal after all – as a possibility at least. But the E key is still more common it seems. Apple have used 2 and UK keyboards 4. In sum, yes I see that the Spanish would expect a € sign on their E key; but I also feel that it shouldn't be too hard to use the 5 key instead.

    Depending on the actual keyboard, the 'ño' need not be so bad as you can slide downwards quite easily. But maybe on some boards it will not be practical. Typing 'niño' is fairly gymnastical on the standard Spanish QWERTY board too, but I can see we have a problem. Not sure what to do with it, short of adding 'ñ' to AltGr+i for instance (or to 'n' and move the en-dash to 'i').

    The 'ó' is tricky, so I'd probably want to move the apostrophe key. Using a Wide mod would allow you to move it into the middle which looks promising to me. Alternatively, add the 'ó' on AltGr+O.

    I haven't made any progress on the X.Org issue, I'm afraid.

    Last edited by DreymaR (09-Sep-2014 09:42:36)

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    Actually, I now have a solution to the € issue as far as Colemak[eD] is concerned. I've been rearranging the layout a bit while I made new dead keys for PKL. There is now a greek dead key on AltGr+5 (for Windows; not sure how to make it work for Linux yet). The down arrow is now where greek mu used to be on AltGr+Shift+M (a better place for it too). Thus, the AltGr+E mapping can hold the € sign – which is nice and logical and compatible. Yay!

    There will be some nice help images for PKL soon. Then I'll set about making the xkb files compatible. At the least, AltGr+5 will take the µ sign so the above cascade can take place.

    Concerning ó and ño: I recommend using full Colemak[eD] (that is, the 'us' variant) instead of just the partial one ('ks'). In full Colemak[eD], the 'ñ' is on the LSGT key so it won't create a same-finger bigram with 'o' anymore. The acute accent is still on the left bracket key but it's unshifted so it should be easier to hit. I think the AngleWide ergo mod will provide an even better solution as both 'ñ' and '(´)' will now be in the middle where both index fingers can reach them!

    If that's not enough, there's always the possibility of adding these letters to AltGr+H/L. Again, the Wide mod will make the AltGr key easier to use but it isn't strictly necessary.

    Do you think that'd be necessary?

        Cmk-X-eD-es-usym+latam-awide-sl_crop.png
        Spanish Cmk[eD], with the AngleWide ergo mod

    Last edited by DreymaR (02-Oct-2014 12:35:41)

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    En el 2012, me entere de Colemak y emocionado me di a la tarea de indagar sobre iniciativas que estuviesen adoptando el modelo de desarrollo de esta distribución de teclado para adaptarlo a otros idiomas. Por una razón que me apasiona, he soñado con aplicar este metodo al Español y al Esperanto. En esa busqueda, mi impulso mermaba por no encontrar proyectos afines a este deseo... pero, esperanzadoramente di con este hilo. Desde ese entonces senti que el tema entraba a condensación. Hoy, tres años despues me dispuse a rastrear nuevamente esta conversación con la agradable noticia de ver sus desarrollos en el tema y los aportes de @DreymaR, @javix, @ndiaz y @wjames. Mi interes, hoy más fuerte que en aquel entonces, me exige y motiva a sumar esfuerzos en la busqueda de una opción más eficiente para teclear. Si bien esta distribución tuvo consideraciones especificas, la tarea entonces seria conseguir datos (experenciales) para luego relacionarlos con las variables y directrices que identifiquemos en temas como digitación, alfabeto, ergonomia que nos permitan llegar a la solución más eficiente.

    Atento a sus comentarios.

    Kirsch Cobric

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    I'm gonna share my thoughts and an idea to enable some sort of International Colemak on Macs.

    I always wished there was a "Colemak - International" on OS X, like the "US - International" layout on Windows.

    I'm using Colemak on OS X 10.11, the layout comes installed on the OS which is very nice, but one of the things I don't like about it, is that the  (')key is not put as a Dead Key, to use the "´" dead key you gotta do Option+E, so if I wanna add accent marks to a letter (áéíóú), I have to do 3 keypresses just to type "á", and considering how common spanish words with an accent are, this shortcut becomes quite annoying, and decreases the typing speed.

    Colemak layout:

    Here's the OS X standard Colemak layout (1st pic), the keys in orange mean "dead key", so it has none, unless you press and hold the Option key (2nd pic).
    colemak layout
    colemak layout with Option pressed

    QWERTY US International Layout:

    As you can see in this image, the QWERTY US International layout has 2 dead keys, highlighted in orange, one of them being the  (')key, no need to press a modifier key to trigger these. Very nice and comfortable.
    qwerty layout

    INCREDIBLE IDEA INCOMING:

    And then I had this idea. If you use Karabiner, there's an option that makes the QWERTY layout act as Colemak, and OS X will think you're on QWERTY when you're not. So here's the cool thing, if you select the US International layout on OS X while enabling the Colemak option on Karabiner, you end up with what I call "Colemak International". This makes the  (')key become a dead key, no more need to press Opt+E, pretty cool huh.

    This is the result (just to clarify, this image was shopped, because OS X shows the QWERTY layout as it thinks you're on that one):
    QWERTYColemakKarabinerCombo

    And finally, I edited a code keymon made for Karabiner, this code remaps left Option+N to "Ñ", no more pressing Opt+N and then N again:

    <?xml version="1.0"?>
    <root>
    
      <item>
        <name>Change Option_L+n to ñ</name>
        <identifier>OptionLplusNToEnie</identifier>
        <autogen>
            --KeyToKey--
            KeyCode::J, ModifierFlag::OPTION_L | ModifierFlag::NONE,
            KeyCode::N, ModifierFlag::OPTION_R, KeyCode::N
        </autogen>
        <autogen>
            --KeyToKey--
            KeyCode::J, ModifierFlag::OPTION_L | ModifierFlag::SHIFT_R | ModifierFlag::NONE,
            KeyCode::N, ModifierFlag::OPTION_R, KeyCode::N, ModifierFlag::SHIFT_R
        </autogen>
        <autogen>
            --KeyToKey--
            KeyCode::J, ModifierFlag::OPTION_L | ModifierFlag::SHIFT_L | ModifierFlag::NONE,
            KeyCode::N, ModifierFlag::OPTION_R, KeyCode::N, ModifierFlag::SHIFT_R
        </autogen>
        </item>
    </root>

    And that's pretty much it. I hope this helps people on OS X who want an acute dead key on their Colemak ala US-International, and a slightly easier way to type "Ñ", for a more fast, comfy typing :)

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    I'm gonna share an idea to enable some sort of International Colemak on Macs.

    nvm, I just tried that layout on normal use, it's comfortable only when typing "á", the rest of vocals feel bad, specially "ó". Having the accent key on the same hand as most vocals is not a good idea..

    Last edited by iiiGerardoiii (06-Jan-2016 00:14:21)
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    Well, in fairness, if you type ó with my Colemak[eD] which has a similar acute dead key as yours (AltGr+'), you should use alternative fingering and it won't be bad at all!

    ' with pinky for all acute accents
    ó: o with ring finger
    í/ú/ý: u/y with middle finger; i with middle finger if ring finger is weak
    é/ń: e/n with index finger

    That's more accents than you'll need, but it's mostly to illustrate.

    My principle is to have the accent dead keys all on symbol keys, so they're on that hand anyway since the acute is a too common accent to stuff up on the number row! Thus, for many locales I've made an even more accessible acute dead key; especially good with the Wide mod I think.

    This is my Spanish layout with Wide mod (the accents are all dead keys):

        Cmk-eD-es+latam-usym-aw_Xmc.png

    Note that with the Wide mod, you can choose which hand to use for the accent key. So you could write ó with left index finger and right pinky for instance. It's  a bit of a jump for the left hand, but worth it – provided you learn to float well (which you should do anyway).

    Last edited by DreymaR (06-Jan-2016 14:49:18)

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    Hi guys! I've been researching about alternative keyboards for a while now, and first tried latam-dvorak (I'm from Chile, so I'd rather use a latam layout), but the lack of my old shortcuts made decide to try Colemak. I wanted to test the DreymaR latam version, but I couldn't find the proper config files, so today I wrote my own one, including a custom colemak-gaming layout, which keeps WASD at their QWERTY positions. In case it's useful for someone: https://github.com/nhermosilla14/latam-colemak

    By the way, thanks for developing this amazing keyboard!!

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    The config files are downloadable from my sig topics, for Linux/XKB and Windows/PKL.

    But hey, nice work! :-)

    Last edited by DreymaR (26-Jan-2016 23:25:20)

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    Hé creado una districución para Español basado en la distribución latina de QWERTY para windows
    Espero que sea útil.

    Aquí les dejo mi post

    1.jpg
    2-Shft.jpg
    3-AltGr.jpg

    Last edited by JulianDMN (12-Jul-2019 18:17:46)
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